The big story today is the capture of U.S. soldiers by Iraqi troops around an Nasiriya. Al Jazeera and Iraqi TV showed footage of the soldiers -- as well as bodies said to be soldiers. Two of the troops iD'ed their unit at the 507th Maintenance. A woman was among those captured.
In a separate incident, U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld acknowledged that some soldiers were missing, but said the number was "fewer than 10." (Stratfor reports that the number is actually 12, and that the soldiers took a wrong turn and are now lost.)
Regarding the American captives, on Meet the Press today, Rumsfeld said the Iraqis had an obligation, under the Geneva Conventions, to respect the rights of any POWs. ""It's illegal to do things to POWs that are humiliating to those prisoners," he said.
Under Article 3 of the Conventions, each warring party "shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
- Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
- Taking of hostages;
- Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
- The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
"The United States of course avoids showing prisoners of war," Rumsfeld said. "We have thousands of Iraqi prisoners that are in POW camps ... but we avoid showing photographs of them." Hm. While I agree that Iraq should follow the letter and spirit of the Conventions, the U.S. has been less than thorough in keeping true to these protocols itself, weakening its case. The prisoners at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay have been held in a legal limbo for months now. Some have been shipped to other countries that employ horrific interrogation methods. Human Rights Watch has urged the Bush Administration to determine the detainees' status and then launch criminal prosecution "where credible evidence exists." Indefinite detention is not legal under the Conventions, despite President Bush's claim to be upholding the "principles" of the Third Convention. As the report from HRW said:
This shortsighted transgression sets a dangerous precedent that could come back to haunt U.S. and allied service-members who are captured by enemy forces in this or future wars. Washington's refusal to treat the detainees as POWs is perplexing because it would in no way inhibit legitimate U.S. efforts to interrogate or prosecute people who have participated in terrorist acts.
In other news, Iraqi resistance is stiffening, as the battle for Basra rages on. Col. Khaled al-Hashemi, Iraqi commander of the 51st Mechanized Division near that city, said March 23 that his division, reported earlier to have surrendered, would continue to fight against U.S. and British forces. "I am with my men in Basra; we continue to defend the people and riches" of the town, Al-Hashemi said. [Stratfor]
Also: "Combat in An Nasiriyah in southeastern Iraq has extended to the cities of Samava, Bataha and Sot al-Sheikh and Hour in the southern province of An Najaf. According to reports released by military sources inside Iraq listening to allied radio, U.S. and British forces have called for reinforcements, more armament, artillery and helicopter gun-ships."
U.S. Special Forces are flying into Iraqi Kurdistan to be deployed around the town of Halabja, according to senior PUK officials. (Likely a backup for actions against Ansar al-Islam. KDP peshmergas have allegedly fought off a small Iraqi attack near Tepe Garus, about 15 kilometers from Arbil. [ibid.]
Also, I heard from Djoy, the Kurdish man in Arbil, who wrote to me last week:Hello Christopher,
Thanks for writing and thanks for your safety wishes. I got back to Erbil city this morning because it was no longer bearable or logical to stay in that village especially after we noticed the very slow pace of the war! anyhow we are still taking precautions.
I hope you will make it to Iraq soon but please take care of yourself as its a real dangerous situation here and completely unpredictable! maybe I will see you in Iraq and hope I can be of help.
You too keep safe,
djoy
More supplies to buy today (Gotta restock the first aid kit.) Then tomorrow and Tuesday I'll be tying up loose ends. Still looking at a Wednesday departure. I'm only waiting on PayPal funds to clear and the laptop to arrive.
No one appears to showing the video footage of the captured/executed US soldiers. I assume part of the reason is out of respect for families that haven’t been notified, etc. However, eventually I would like to view it for myself. Has anyone found it online?
Yellowtimes has stills.
I wondered about the Geneva convention yesterday when MSNBC was showing some Iraqi prisoners but I read somewhere that the United States had decided not to be subject to the Geneva Convention so I guess that is the reason for the difference.
When the POWs being shown on MSNBC, that must have been a mirage. Because Rumsfeld assured us we’d “never do such a thing.”
paz para vocês. (peace for you)
O Brasil está do lado de vocês.
I just don’t know how much more of this chit I can take: if it’s our pow’s being mistreated, we scream bloody murder; but when we capture pow’s and “detainees” we make up our OWN RULES. (Please see:”War on Terror: License for the CIA to Abduct Children?” March 10th entry on Blog Sisters, about U.S. Intelligence (snort) kidnapping 2 children of al Qaeda deputy, to make him talk—WTF?! It made me want to throw up.)
When the U.N sanctions against our transgressors, we give them the thumbs up, but when the tables are turned and the U.N. warns us against taking an aggressive stance, our (White House) response is: The U.N.? Who needs ‘em? What’s a U.N.?
Arrogance gone bad, we have become a fair-weather friend only when it is convenient for us to do so.
Watch your back, man, and take no prisoners.
I will be looking forward to reading your authentic news reports from the field. Please buy Djoy a cuppa t for me.
Kate Sanders, North Pole, Alaska,
reporting a looney-bird’s eye view from the top of the world
How is this for independent journalism: http://www.msnbc.com/news/889555.asp
Photos of POWs
http://radio.weblogs.com/0108234/categories/iraq/2003/03/23.html#a467
why would you want to see photos of pows? this war is becoming a spectator sport.
The POW footage is being shown in Spain openly, and the word is that in the Us Dod is putting presure so the American tv wo’t show it. Take care in your trip, don’t risk it too much.
Regards
Hello. Pictures and footage of the Pows and the US casualties is online in www.elmundo.es
WindowsMediaplayer:
http://videos.elmundo.es/noticias/2003/03/23/alqaeda.asf
Realmedia:
http://videos.elmundo.es:8080/ramgen/noticias/2003/03/23/alqaeda.rm
Not nice to see :(
Bush breaks international law by starting this war and then demands that Iraq follow international law in treating POWs? He ships suspected terrorists all over the world to be tortured and murdered then says Iraq can’t torture or murder Americans. How can the American public be so stupid to support this lying hypocrite?
These are the “consequences” of Bush’s actions. As always with people like him, the price for his actions is not be paid by him, but by real Americans.
I continue to hope against hope that all of the troops come home soon, including these men and women being held by Iraq.
When will most Americans wake up and see what Bush is doing?
We are not abusing any Iraqi prisoners, but it is certain that the poor American POW’s will be subject to horrible things, eventually they may be strapped to key sites. It appears that guerilla forces are causing problems in the south, I wonder how we will capture Baghdad. If the forces there hold strong, then maybe we’ll have to use other options. I wouldn’t be surprised that in order to win this war the US and Co. will have to bomb Baghdad back into the stone age. But, I hope it won’t come to that.
Can anyone get on the Aljazeera website? I can’t.
Paul MacDonald at Casus Belli has a post on how well respected the Geneva conventions have been. He writes:
Depressing stuff. Still, one can only hope for the safety of our soldiers. Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will…
Iraq, the cradle of civilization, has been liberated into the stone age. Freedom and democracy has been reinstated at the tribal level and the Iraqis are now free to elect their own chieftains. They are also free to hunt any animal that might have survived in the Iraqi desert between the dried up streams formerly known as Euphrates and Tigris.
UN sanctions still apply, but will gradually be lifted, first to allow Iraqis to hold stone axes weighing above .8 lb and building huts reinforced by branches thicker than 2 inches, but later blunt spears and bronze knives might be allowed. It is not likely the US will allow use of the wheel in any foreseeable future, as the possibility of chariots could pose a threat to US security in the region.
I don’t think it really looks good to go against the UN decision and then whinge to the UN that Iraq’s not following UN rules.
I just want to say that I hope that Iraq and the United States both stick to the Geneva Conventions regardless of the legality of this invasion. It’s awful those soldiers are dead or captured. Let’s not make it worse by giving the Iraqis a pass just because Bush’s actions are of questionable legality.
http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2003/3/3-23-23.htm
PLEASE, its a war so the images here are pretty rough.
I agree that both sides should abide by international law, Christopher. However, pointing out the undeniable hypocrisy and corruptness of Bush’s actions and words is not the same as giving the Iraqis a pass. That is like saying protest is helping the enemy or dissent is treason. It’s simply not true.
The fact is that the Iraqis will not have a hard time justifying, to themselves, and to some of the rest of the world, that they have a right to treat U.S. prisoners the same way as the U.S. has been treating suspected terrorists. That included sending them off to places unknown, very likely to be tortured and murdered. This is not approving of the U.S. or Iraq, this is pointing out the consequences of Bush’s previous illegal actions. Both sides should be condemned for their actions.
When it comes time for “war crimes” trials, do you honestly believe that the United States will be held to the same standard as Iraq? It is obvious that they will not.
Why on earth are people making a big deal about this Geneva Convention talk? As pointed out above, states have never really taken these ‘rules’ seriously and probably never will. Second, just because this war criminal Rumsfeld says these images violate the Convention we all start making a big deal about it. The US is a routine violator of the Geneva Convention, just ask the people of Vietnam, Libya, Iraq, Belgrade, Panama, to name a few. The prisoners at Guantanamo Bay for crying out loud.
Here’s a link to a couple of Shock and Awe casualties, NOT A PRETTY SIGHT and NOT FOR THE FAINT-HEARTED.
http://www.yellowtimes.org/civilians.php
Yes, that is the difference. Leftists think that America is guilty of all manner of wrongdoing, and that her enemies are justified in any atrocity. The rest of America has a different view.
Hopefully this will be the beginning of the end for all the despots in the Middle East. I do not agree with some of the US policies in the past, but I know being in Iraq not means we can’t turn back and with what they’ve done has only increased my resolve to defeat the Iraqi regime. The real problem is the brainwashing the Iraquies have endured over the past 30 years…and times when America has had its hands dirty. But even with all these US transgressions….we are still doing the right thing now.
Good luck on your trip and please stay safe. Lets see if you can offer a non-biased “journalistic” reporting resource for everyone.
Yes, that is the difference. Leftists think that America is guilty of all manner of wrongdoing, and that her enemies are justified in any atrocity. The rest of America has a different view.
Posted by GWashington at March 23, 2003 07:55 PM
Phony! The real Father of Our Country would never stoop to that lame retort!
Those images are nothing more than dead men. and a few captives.
That make you angry? Why?
It’s war. You asked for a war and if you didn’t, you let it happen.
Haunting images have been my life, but not photos or news storys, reality. It’s time those who sneer, vomit, or seek retribution from experienceing simply an image assume a bit of reality check here. This is war, it’s what you wanted, expect nothing less, just a whole lot more. Maybe if America could see, feel, and smell death daily they too might just get angry enough to commandeer aircraft and target civilians. Especially if we knew who did it.
“Maybe if America could see, feel, and smell death daily they too might just get angry enough to commandeer aircraft and target civilians.”
That is exactly why we fight—so we don’t see, feel, and smell death daily. Sounds to me like jealousy—you want us to experience what you have your whole life? Why? Why would you want that on any nation? Those images are human beings like you and me not nothing more than dead men. They are son’s and fathers.
Agreed. We fight because we were shown explicitly that there are many others who want to slaughter us outright.
If they could have killed all of Manhatten and D.C. on 9-11 they would have.
And for those of you holding your breath that there are no direct links to Iraq — don’t because you will pop. The links will be shown in time. The man has been supporting other terrorists what makes you so sure he doesn’t have one link to Al Qaeda? Even if not, there are links to Hamas, the northern Irak group and others.
This is not black and white.
I hate the discordance in the world. 9-11 woke us up to the fact that we have been living in our psuedo peaceful cafe-latte SUV driving, suburban mall lives. And the sooner you realize this the sooner you will stop being so damn confused.
not my quote but this is why we haven’t applied Geneva convention to Cuba detainees “under the convention, the detainees are still not prisoners of war, inasmuch as they masquerade as civilians, stage sneak attacks, slaughter innocent civilians, pretend they are surrendering and then come out shooting, take hostages, hide arms in mosques, and generally do not abide by the laws or customs of war.”
The Iraqis have been calling captured Americans “mercenaries”, therefor, using Dan’s logic, because they have been renamed by the government, Iraq has no need to follow international law.
It is just as simple for Iraq to do it as it is for the U.S. They are following the United States’ example. They believe they can break the law because we have been breaking the law.
For those of you outside of the United States, you can now see clearly the power of the U.S. media propaganda. People are brainwashed daily to believe things that any ounce of common sense proves false instantly.
This is the right wing in America, talking out of both sides of their mouth, controlling the meida message, arguing against what they said yesterday, applying laws when they want, where they want, and only to whom they want.
What exactly did my daily brainwashing relieve me of any ounce of common sense to detect? That maybe those held in guantanamo weren’t part of a regular army rather than a bunch of terrorists from 25 countries whose primary goal was to enslave the Muslim world and destroy those opposed?
why do the pictures of the POWs make people so much angrier than the pictures of the children with half their heads gone?
Americans: wake up!
Some of you say “wake up”, some of you say “we’ve been brainwashed”. I guess you see things at a different angle than some of us. I detest the killing of innocent people, but if you’re going to put yourself in between a gun fight then I have no sympathy. How frustrating is it to see the “leftist” brainwashed….you can always twist things to look the way you want. Saddam Hussein has killed more Muslims in the world than anyone else in the world. He tortures women, men and anyone that opposes him.
Thank God we have someone in this country with enough courage to face evil in the world. You are probably some of the same people that would have been protesting about the US getting involved in the WWII.
pictures of detainees on both sides have been shown repeatedly and openly on UK tv…
Although perhaps less so now, maybe the lawyers got on to them. I watched a news report that discussed the Geneva Conventions while showing footage of Iraqis surrendering.
All over the world TV, newspapers has been showing picture of the POWs. Newspapers use as a front page photos of children kill or injured. I think everyone has the right to know what is going on. Where are the cheerful Iraqis???? I haven’t seen anything. Just dead people. Why??
good luck with you trip….. From greece
Saddam may be evil. Very very evil. But please explain to me why uncle SAM has to go halfway around the world to fix it by means of warfare? “He’s a threat to us”, yes I’m sure many countries are threats to us. But war?
So are we assuming that after the war, let’s say we oust Saddam and his whole regime, we forcibly put in a “democracy”, and the rest of Iraq will instantly convert into a democracy, love it and run it once we’re gone?
Or maybe we could have lifted the sanctions, educated them (works wonders in the long term), helped them, fed them Iraqi citizens? Or, since we don’t much care for international law, why NOT secretly assasinate Saddam? A CIA suicide agent should be able to this, no?
Christopher,
Salam just posted, and he has survived the first wave of the storm; I think you should be the one who does the ‘exclusive’ interview with him. Forget the reporters that are ‘in bed’ with the military!
I wish I could contribute to your trip, but I’m unemployed, so my prayers for your safety will have to do…
I will be looking forward to your inside views.
CBC showed the video. BBC ran the videos, but blurred the faces; then they showed photographs of all of them without doing so…not quite sure what the point was in that.
The double standard being applied in this situation is annoying, but not suprising. When I heard Rumsfeld on ‘Meet the Press’ yesterday morning, I immediately thought of all of the Iraqi POW’s I had seen paraded before the cameras.
Today a soldier (in combat) was ‘interviewed’ by a reporter who had crawled over to him and began barraging him with questions. “So, what’s it like being here right now?”
There’s one for John Stossel.
I thought
I really don’t like to be rude, but those of you spouting off about the “Geneva Convention” are showing off your ignorance.
The “Geneva Convention” you are quoting has VERY SPECIFIC requirements that must be met before those protections you hold so dear kick in. One of those requirements is that the person in question be in offical miltary uniform. The men at Gitmo were not - therefore, the Geneva Convention (actually, there were several, but anyway) legally does not apply.
I don’t want to be rude either, but are you really suggesting that just because someone is not wearing the same clothes as the other guy in the trenches, he shouldn’t be covered by the Conventions? I know what the Conventions say. I also know the Taliban, for better or for worse, were the de facto government of Afghanistan, and thus troops under their command were, for all practical purposes, an army with soldiers. Not putting them under the Coneventions by citing the uniform requirement is a loophole and you know it. You also know that U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan sometimes didn’t wear uniforms. Should they not be covered too? Because they wore a bland tunic instead of khaki jump boots?
The U.S. may not be in violation of the letter of the Conventions, but a good argument can be made its violating the spirit of them.
Reciprocity is a bitch; I hope people remember that.
The infamous censored footage:
http://www.newsfrombabylon.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=45
This is much to do about nothing. Iraq has said they will follow rules of Geneva Convention (even as the USA openly flouts them) - as reported “These two pilots are now prisoners of war and are being treated as prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Convention. We as Iraqis respect the Geneva Convention and human rights,” the television report said.
Hi I’d just like to say that during “Desert Storm” there was POWs including two women who where assaulted, and men POWs where tortured and shown just like current US POWs are right now.There are no human rights in Iraq why do you expect their respecting any convention. They killed the women and children in Al Habja, they won’t be better this time and I think that the tyran of Bagdad might even try,if he feels that he’ll soon die, to use chemical weapons in the city of bagdad killing hundreds of civilians.
RE: the request to links containing the US POW footage broadcasted by the Aljazeera television network. You can get the link by going to http://sh1.antville.org/stories/327349/ or directly at http://www.muslm.net/vbnu/showthread.php?threadid=74439 Someone must stop this war.
The UN Is useless at this point. They can pass as many resolutions as they seem fit but it does no good if they don’t enforce them.
Im really getting sick of Iraq screaming bloody murder when some civilians get killed. When Iraq went into Kuwait I didn’t see anyone in Iraq crying over the fact that Iraq Kill, and mutilated hundreds of civilians. Those of you who think that leaders of Irag should not be removed are just plain crazy.
While your sitting in your cozy little home typing on one of your three home computers think of the people of Iraq who have nothing do the their current leaders who take it all for themselves. Wake up and get a grip on life, war is bad but it is also needed at times. Most of use would not even be here if it was not for war.
all you crybabies who are against this war should use your tiny brains to contemplate how lucky you are to be able to speak your mind. Tens of thousand of AMERICAN solders have DIED in order to give you this RIGHT! Use your tiny brains to speak out against saddam and all the atrocities he has committed against mankind. Maybe you are too stupid to know about this or is it that you just dont choose or care to know about his inhuman barbaric treatment of his own people.
is there a way to get audio & video of american pow’s in iraq?
thank you
Now that our troops are in Iraq, we must support them and their families- 150%. They are enduring much more than any man or woman should have to in the name of freedom. No matter what the initial reason, the world will be rid of a brutal dictator, which in anyone’s eyes should be a good thing.
That being said, to those that think this is purely a war of freedom I must ask: why could we not wait for additional support from other countries… U.S. soldiers (along with Briton’s) volunteered to defend our countries- not to be the sole police force of the world…
And to those that say this act is a means of defending our country, I must agree to a very limited extent, but when Iraq is surrounded by enemies already, what chance do you think there existed for a direct attack on the US.. Definitely not a chance great enough to warrant the disruption of hundreds of thousands of lives and will likely cost the lives of thousands of our young…
If the WMD evidence was as strong as The US Government declared, then after several more weeks or months, other countries would likely have joined the coalition by sending in troops. There was no imminent threat, especially with the worlds focus on the weapons inspection inside Iraq. Why not wait?
—Quote from Hitler’s right hand man, Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals
“Naturally the common people don’t want war. Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after
all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Would you idiots read the Geneva Conventions.
It only applies to “states” at war (for the Lef t that means independent countries). Not renegade terrorists.
The UN Security Council has recognized this a multitude of times in it’s history.
In fact, the UN Security Council does not even recognize “State sponsored Terrorism” as warfare defined by the Geneva Conventions.
Why don’t you idiots take the time to learn what your talking about; before, you run off at the mouth. Of course, that would be completely contradictory of the “Liberal Left”, they would rather be “Wrong at the top of their voice”.
pual j you need to shut up,you dont know what you are talking about
the photographs of irak prisoners’ tortures are an excellent material for rotten.com