ARBIL, Iraqi Kurdistan -- Now that the war seems to be winding down, the long knives of ethnic politics are coming out. Glad to see no one is wasting any time!
In Kirkuk today, representatives from the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, the Kurdistan Democratic Party, the Iraqi Turkomen Front and the Americans are meeting to thrash out how the city and the region will be governed once the PUK completes the pullout of its peshmergas from the city. Units from the American 173rd Airborne will be taking over to provide order and discourage the kind of looting taking place in Mosul today.
The looting in Mosul seemed much worse than what happened yesterday in Kirkuk. I bumped into Philip Robertson, of Salon.com, who asked me if the Americans were moving into Mosul. I said I didn't know.
"Well, they better get there fast before they start shooting each other," he said.
The issue of security is a tricky one, as Turkey is using the issue of the safety of the Turkomen minority in each city to justify a military intervention in northern Iraq. So far, the Turks' response has been to send some "military observers" -- basically a bunch of officers, near as I can tell -- to Kirkuk, but they have thousands of heavily armed troops perched north of the border and just inside Iraq ready to swoop south. To the Kurds, this is just more of the Turks being the Turks.
"This is not the first time they have done this," said Anawar Omer, 32, a laborer I spoke with in Arbil's Shekhullah district, one of the major market areas. "They are the enemies of the Kurds and they want us to be nothing. Kirkuk is Kurdistan. It belongs to Kurds and it will always be that way."
"We will kill the Turks if they come inside," added Mahdi Kasab, a 30-year-old butcher standing nearby. "Each of us will kill six Turks if they come here."
But the bellicosity of the Kurdish masses aside, the politics are as dangerous as any of the hundreds of minefields dotting the region.
"Kirkuk is delicate," said Sadi Ahmed Pire, with the PUK international relations office and chief PUK representative in Arbil. "We have to be careful not to make any mistakes."
Which brings us back to this meeting, which I'm sure is a big headache for the Americans trying to bring this region to heel. The agenda is to bring order to Kirkuk -- setting up traffic police, a temporary mayor, curfews -- without compromising anyone's "interests."
But "everyone's" interests seem too contradictory to be reconciled. The Kurds claim Kirkuk as theirs, both for historical reasons -- the validity of which I'm not even going to try to untangle -- and economic reasons. The Kirkuk oil fields are some of the richest in Iraq, and if the Kurds were able to exploit them, their 12-year-old experiment in self-government in the north would start to look a whole lot more viable as an independent state.
The Turks, however, see this as a direct threat to their security, both because the Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK) used northern Iraq as a base during its 15-year war with Turkey that left more than 30,000 civilians dead, and because Turkey fears an uppity Iraqi Kurdistan would encourage its own 12 million or so Kurds to rebel.
"We are concerned about the Turkish position," said Pire. "They have no right to have a doubt about the future of the area. I cannot explain why they have suspicions about a free life for the Iraqi people."
And the Turkomen? What's their angle? The Iraqi Turkomen Front and its president, Sanan Ahmet Aga, say they just want equal rights for their people, security and a seat at the political table. And the best way to get that, they feel, is to appeal to their ethnic brothers the Turks to cudgel the Kurds. This way, they can grab more political power than their numbers would normally allow. (Population numbers are pretty fuzzy, considering the last official Iraqi census was in 1957 and the Ba'athist regime routinely used fuzzy math for its own political agenda -- hm -- but I've heard estimates of the Turkomen population that range between 2 percent and 12 percent of Iraq's population -- 500,000 to 3 million people.)
Likewise, the Turks can use the image of the oppressed Turkomen, cowering behind their doors in the face of mortal threat from barbaric peshmergas and in need of Turkish protection, as a reason for them to maintain a military presence in Iraqi Kurdistan.
The Kurds, of course, are having none of that. "Turkey is a regional power and they have interests and they are misusing the issue [of the Turkomen] to express their interests," said Pire. "The Turks speak of the Turkomen. But what happened to the Turkomen in Kirkuk? They weren't targeted."
As near as I could observe, Pire's right on this one. The looting I witnessed yesterday in Kirkuk was pretty equal-opportunity. Homes weren't being looted; government buildings and shopping centers were. A couple of times I saw a kids carrying tables or other office furniture while sporting the crescent-moon-and-stars-on-blue flag of the Iraqi Turkomen Front. They didn't look too worried about their safety.
"Turkey," he said, "is poisoning the atmosphere with their behavior."
But to hear the Turkomen talk, perils lurk everywhere for them.
"We are in danger from the peshmergas," said Salim Otrakchi, a political advisor to Iraqi Turkomen Front president Aga. "Al Jazeera and Arabia TV show them taking all the money from the bank in Mosul."
The ITF wants the Turks to come in, for reasons detailed above, but worries that a small contingent of Turkish officers won't be enough.
"We are for any administration that keeps people safe," said Otrakchi. "But if the Americans can't do it, let another power do it. The Americans are not prepared for this kind of work."
He said the Turkomen were especially worried about Kirkuk because the PUK had promised it would not go into the city with its forces and it did anyway.
At this point, it's probably a good idea just to tell you that I don't believe what anyone is telling me at face value. The Kurds, deep in their hearts, really do want an independent Kurdistan and this talk of federalism is the practical side of Kurdish nationalism. If they thought they could get away with it, they would bolt Iraq and never look back, I think. The Turkomen don't really feel that threatened, but they see the Kurds with their new buddies, the Americans, and worry they'll be left out of any settlement and development plans in the north. So, they're trying to play the Turks off the Americans to keep the Kurds in check. And the Turks ... Well, actually, I believe them when they say they're worried about their security. They're a truly paranoid bunch.
I asked Otrakchi if the reason for Turkomen fears in Kirkuk and Mosul was the Kurds or the general disorder. Were Turkomen being targeted by anyone? Why were they deserving of special protection?
"Our people fear the power groups," he said. "And the peshmergas have the power. No other group has power. This power is not being used to keep people secure."
I said I saw many Kurds and Turkomen together in the park in Kirkuk pulling down the statue. And that I didn't think peshmergas were actually in Mosul, that reports have said they stopped just outside the city while the Iraqi defenders melted away. It was the lack of peshmergas -- or any other authority -- that led to the looting in Mosul turning savage, if the pictures are to be believed. Again, aren't the Kurds just as threatened by disorder and riots as Turkomen?
He asked me to make an appointment and talk to his president on Saturday morning. So I did. Maybe then I'll get a straight answer.
All the positioning and bickering reminds me of the scene in “Lawrence of Arabia” when Lawrence is in the room with the large round table, surrounded by shouting tribesman all insisting on their terms, after the fall of Damascus. Let’s hope things go better this time…
Given the complete lack of follow-through by the Bush administration with regard to Afganistan, I’m not optimistic. OTOH Afganistan doesn’t have much in the way of OIL…..
This is nice and detailed reporting. I did not get this from reading the washington post. Thank you.
Thanks for reporting on all sides of the story!
Asides from their fears, do the Turkomen claim oppression in the past?
When the Turkish observers come in, do you think you can interview them, too?
I think that in addition to Turkey worrying about its security, there is a strong economic worry as well - How much must have 500,000 refugees and a 15 year war with terror claiming 30,000 lives cost? I’m sure whatever it costs to keep an active NATO army of approx. 700,000 is too much burden given the state of the Turkish economy.
Trish, funny you should mention ol Lawrence. As I understand it, the Iraqi Kurds & Turks have him to thank for being part of Iraq all these years (since 1919). Also, while I am very much in sympathy with the Kurds, as I understand it they have quite a bit of Armenian blood on their hands going back to that era. Dont think they had much problem with the Ottomans prior to being split up by Lawrence. So I think the Turks have a genuine historical beef with regards to losing N Iraq. Of course, it seems to me they forfeited any claim to consideration with that incredibly stupid rejection of our deal way back in March.
Nice job on sorting out some issues here! Yea, the Turkist Paronoia is omnipresent. Take this from someone who had a chance to observe the Turkish Army. But, Powell is handling them like a live rattler and even if they push to send troops in, there is only one main road and gee, what targets for cruise missles, etc. “Oh my God!” you ask, “Would we do it?” This could be a close call…Turkey is really no longer of any use to us since the Fall of the Wall. We thought it would be of use to use in this war. Did not work out. Sooooo, what good are they?
The Belgians said that they would keep Turkey from entering the EU if they sent troops into Kurdistan. But in reality, no one else in the EU really wants Turkey in the EU either, as they view Turkey (under their breath), as unstable plastique…(powder keg for old diehards).
No matter how you paint Turkey, it never quite matches 21st Century Euro standards.
(Yet, I love how they make their stuffed peppers!
Nearly like mom’s!)
And a really practical item…do you think the Turks can move anywhere as near as fast as us with their antiquated units?
And just why have we kept on unloading the 4th ID and sending it north?
Things to think on as people are ready to do some clever editing on Syria if it is found to be hiding Ba’athistes…
would love to know what Christopher’s reaction is to Rumsfeld’s sarcatstic expression of disbelief today when asked about looting/anarchy in Mosul, Baghdad and Basra, ie how bad is it really? Rumsfeld suggested the mainstream media was over reacting to a few isolated incidents. Please cut through the spin for us (and thanks for the Turkoman/Kurd perspective, no one else is really addressing this).
Rumsfeld…
why is it when he talks, i feel like i should check my id card?
and i am a white boy!!
please continiue to persevere with the truth, it is well appreciated!!
scotty
Hey, maybe if the Turks had allowed Kurdish to be spoken/taught all these years (only recently “unbanned”, in hopes of EU entry), and hadn’t banned nearly all Kurdish political parties, they would have so much to worry about!
Linguistic/cultural oppression has caused minorities that were thought a threat to the powers that be to persist, not dwindle.
If you would strengthen a thing, resist it. WHY is this so hard for so many governments to figure out?
If the Kurds in Turkey had had equal political and linguistic rights the last 80 years, I’m confident Turkey wouldn’t have this “problem” right now.
Oh course there is the fact that Saladin was a Kurd, which I’m certain no one in the region has forgotten (Muslim conquerers of the entire middle east have been Kurds, Turks and Persians [Iranians], but not Arabs, unless you count the Prophet himself, who didn’t really unite the whole enchillada).
No wonder Arabs have an inferiority complex, they’ve been conquered by everyone BUT Arabs (not counting local coups :-)
We need more boots on the ground. A couple hundred thousand troops might be needed to police Iraq for a while. These looters are going overboard, it’s allright to loot from the regime in Iraq, but it’s getting out hand. They are looting hospitals, they are even taking the ambulances! They are stripping everything, taking down including windows, doors, and other unusual things. Eventually, law and order will be restored.
I don’t understand you people. You talk of Turkey being paranoid about security, yet you don’t have any idea what this 15-year long war with Kurds caused us. Even in our biggest cities like Istanbul or Ankara, we were living in constant fear of terrorist bombings. They put bombs in shopping malls. They committed suicide attacks in the middle of the most crowded streets. They did this to us for more than 20 years. And yet, we should not be afraid about them having more money, more power than they did before. What makes you think they will stop claiming our land as their own, and go on killing our people, once they have their own government? Yes, as a civilian turkish woman who lives in Istanbul, I have nightmares about PKK -or what is left of it- and Kurds having a lot of money and land. They are the ones who are evil, they are TERRORISTS.
I remember talking to someone from Turkey who was half Turk and half Kurd. The Kurds just want economic opportunities, and the right to speak their own language, which I believe was reported here by Christopher as well. The Turkish government has consistently misinterpreted the situation, and thought the Kurds want their own country. The conflict between Turkey and the Kurds is probably one of the stupidest in the world, although a lot of these conflicts are pretty stupid.
Lloyd: You don’t learn history from movies.
Tony: The Turks can move VERY fast across their border, with their unantiquated NATO units, many of which they purchased from the US. They even have a serious airforce (I’m not comparing with the USAF, of course). If Turkey would be no use to us, then Powell and Rumsfeld would not go on TV and say “Turkey continues to be an important ally”. The war in Iraq may be ending but the war in the middle east may just be beginning?
David: Kurds and Turks in Turkey DO have equal political rights, Kurds in Turkey ARE technically Turks, many are in high government positions. It is certain Kurdish PARTIES/IDEAS that have been banned, not the 15-20 million individuals.
gb: You assume that the Turkish government “misinterprets” Kurds’ ambitions for years. Couldn’t we also assume that the average Kurd in Turkey is “misled” by separatist Kurdish groups to rise up against Turkish govt in the name of language/opportunity but the underlying aim of the groups is a separate state on Turkish soil? These governments and groups are not as stupid as we think, me thinks, and anything that we’ve thought of, they’ve already heard. If the Turk/Kurd conflict is so stupid, then isn’t it another possibility that it is internationally supported for other countries’ agendas? I mean, someone somewhere must be thinking they’re smart, no?
Everyone, please try to understand that there is a difference between the Kurds in Turkey and the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Think of Koreans in South and North Korea being similar people until their country was split in two, with one side being super-poor. Do you see the similarities? Or what if Mexicans in Mexico told Mexican-Americans in California that their culture is being eroded and they are systematically being Americanized? Or, let’s give Native Americans (American Indians) their own states?
Turkish news today report that the Kurds have opened fire on (and wounded) 2 Turkish reporters/cameraman in Mosul.. “Kemal Batur” and “Mesut Gengec” from “SKY Turk” were apparently trying to go to a hospital which Kurds allegedly had looted and there were numerous dead bodies there (sic).
superflu: If only your parliament had let our troops through, the Kurds wouldn’t be in such a good position today; we wouldn’t have had to rely on them in northern Iraq. Now, we owe them some consideration for being our allies in the region. cough (unlike you) cough
But no, they aren’t going to get their own country, nor are we going to turn a blind eye against terrorism by them or anyone else from any quarter. In case you haven’t noticed, we’re rather serious about stamping out terrorists.
The Turks are worried, because they know what the geostrategic plans are - for years, Pearle and the neocons promoted a close alliance between Turkey and Israel - Israel helped Turkey get rid of the PKK and arrest Ockalan, and Turkey allowed the Israeli Air Force to use Turkish airspace for training. The Jewish lobbies in Washington became the most fervent Turkey supporterd - the point man was R Perle, who was a paid lobbyist for the Turkish goverment for years.
At some point, the Turkish elite understood where all this was heading, broke ranks and went against US interests - they didn’t even allow the US to use the Incirlik base for Air Force operations, something that they did for over 12 years. No other nation damaged US war plans as much - the reason is simple: The Turks finaly understood that what Perle and his friends had in mind was to set up in independent Kurdish state, which was then going to be used to incite Syrian and Turkish Kurds to rise up and demand their lands to be incorporated into the independent Kurdistan.
With more than 20 million Kurds living in Turkey and most of east/southeast Turkey being Kurd land, that would be the end of the Turkey - other minorities would rise up and the Turkish entity, as manufactured by K Atatourk, would collapse. So, the Turks are worried about the very existence of their country, not just a bunch of Turkomans.
Israel doesn’t need Turkey anymore - they’ll get their oil and water from Iraq, so Turkey’s strategical importance is diminished. The only weapon they have left is shutting down their dams and turn off water to Iraq (and Syria)- the dams are in Kurdish areas, another reason Israelis may be interested in them falling in the hands of Kurds.
Kurds are Moslems and in the past cooperated with Turks - they were mostly responsible for massacring the christian Armenians. They are an Aryan race, and their language has preserved many of the characteristics of the primitive Aryan tongue - has nothing to do with either Arabic or Turkish, although Kurds use three different alphabets, depending on where they live.
http://www.armeniaweek.com/april262002/kurds.html
Kurds threatening Assyrians Iraqis and trying to take their property
http://www.aina.org/
For the indigenous Assyrian Christians of Mesopotamia (also known as Chaldeans and Syriacs), the northern Iraqi provinces of Mosul, Arbil, and Dohuk constitute the very heartland of a nearly 7000 year Assyrian existence. Beginning with the creation of the modern Iraqi nation, Assyrians lost approximately 60 villages in northern Iraq following the massacre of Assyrian civilians in Simele and the surrounding villages by the Iraqi Army in 1933. Another 200 villages were razed along with scores of ancient churches — some ancient treasures in their own right — by the Iraqi government in the 1960’s and 1970’s. In other instances, prime Assyrian lands were taken by the government for a fraction of their market value under the guise of “imminent domain.” Following the Gulf War, lands from more than 50 additional villages were expropriated by Behdanani Kurdish tribes usually with direct ties to the Barzani clan. Those lands previously taken by the government were subsequently expropriated by the Kurdish paramilitary organizations who ostensibly took over the government in the northern “Safe Haven.”
Assyrian concerns are understandable in light of a previous Kurdish track record of land occupation and expropriation. Almost universally, all of these lands still under Assyrian ownership were illegally settled by Behdanani Kurdish squatters. With some Assyrian villages still literally under paramilitary occupation, vulnerable Assyrian villagers who had earlier fled their razed villages have been unable to legally or forcibly reclaim their homes. Since the Gulf War and the establishment of the “Safe Haven,” some Assyrians seeking to return to their home villages have been prevented either by Iraqi governmental or Kurdish security agents at the various checkpoints dividing the nation.
This most recent parliamentary directive has raised concerns that a new push by the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) may purposely target Assyrian existence in the northern provinces. One Assyrian analyst who described the directive as the Kurdish version of the “final solution” to the Assyrian case noted “make no mistake, there are no Assyrian squatters or Kurdish squatters, for that matter, on Kurdish lands. Those rare cases are expeditiously resolved either by swift court action or a bloodbath. This law simply has the potential to transfer illegally expropriated Assyrian lands to Kurdish squatters. The decree has the potential to allow the Kurdish occupation forces to de facto confiscate Assyrian lands and sell them to their Kurdish supporters at a fraction of their real market value. None of the proceeds are ever seen by the legal Assyrian owners, but rather, go to fill the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) coffers. When seen in light of previous Kurdish land grabs, Assyrians are rightly concerned about the potential that this law will lead to the decimation of Assyrian existence in the northern provinces.”
The Kurdish scheme has been simple but effective and has been accelerated since the UN administered “Safe Haven” allowed Kurdish paramilitary bands free reign in the region. First, Assyrian lands forcibly vacated by the government are settled by Kurdish tribesmen often tied to the ruling Barzani clan and almost always with the tacit approval of the regional authority. Assyrians attempting to return are often blocked from doing so and are threatened until they abandon hope for reclaiming their lands. Other Assyrian villages that are still inhabited such as the string of villages in the Nahla district are regularly besieged and attacked in an attempt to intimidate the Assyrians. (AINA 10/16/1999). When these midnight raids and beatings of unarmed civilians had been internationally exposed, village elders were rounded up and threatened into signing a KDP drafted letter denying the attacks (AINA 1/21/2000). With greater scrutiny from the international community including confirmation of the attacks by the UN and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) (AINA 9/18/2000), the attacks had lessened until earlier this year when a midnight grenade attack was reported by Mr. Aladin Khamis, Vice President of the Assyrian American National Federation (AANF) (AINA 12/12/2002).
Amnesty International on Assyrian Human Rights in Iraq - Human rights abuses were reported in areas under Kurdish control.
http://www.aina.org/ai.htm
I guess Turks will do just about anything to trash Kurds. Thats what they want, a civil war so they can have a excuse to enter Kurdistan and opress the Kurds.
Ania is a ultra national racist organization, all thier website is full of crap and lies. It’s made by exil Assyrians who HAVE no idea what is going on in south Kurdistan.
Why don’t you ask the Assryians that ACTULLY do live in south Kurdistan.
There are no killings of Assyrians, there two major parties in south Kurdistan. They have guards, there are areas in Kurdistan where NO muslims can live or build any mosques.
Gud, This webiste is a play ground for trashing Kurds. Mean while the Kurds is suffering the most of facsit goverments like Turkey.
The turth will come out.
I hope Chris will visit the political Assyraian parites and find out about if it is true that Assryians are victimized by Kurds or not.
And also hope that Chris meets with Kurdish and Turkmen people to talk about the situation.
DD, if you are so worried about human rights why don’t you start with your goverment and people?
DD, what a big fat lie about Kurds and Turks have equal rights!
Let people read the Amnesty Anual Report 2002 they will relize that Turkey is still a facsit, racsist goverment and Turks have NO respcet to Kurds and human rights.
All I had to say has been said. Great job, as per par on your reporting. I know what I’m getting from you is real.
Well, this is getting to be a nice discussion…but I wish that if you contact me with a long diatribe that you would put your full name instead of “someone”. Nice alias, but stinking of cowardice plus it carries the possibility of fraud. Now to reply to the comments about the fast moving Turkish Army (already crippled by their economic situation…and oh, guess who is supposed to be reconditioning (or was) the Turkish fleet of 970 old M60 A1’s…ISRAEL! Oy Vay!) These M60’s have nowhere the speed of the Abrams and with the new ammunition their turrets are just popoffs, to be sure. Their fighters are 270 (if all are working) F-16’s without the latest updates, to be sure (again). Plus, Turkey really cannot afford a battle let alone a war.
They talk big and carry a tiny stick. Stick to shelling Toyota taxis.
Now, for this fear of the Kurds…well, Ok, I was with Kurds in the early 70’s…long before the “outbreaks”…but jeez, they were really frustrated by not being able to use their own language. And in addition, the Turks have a high extermination record if you also include the Armenian thing. There is room for a more liberal attitude.
Ok, Assyrian Christians picked by Kurds…could be, could have happened…old line Islam ways. Good to hear the debate on it. But I give Islam a break for the Youth coming up who are not beholden to the old school. They are more adept at assuming other’s ideas. There is hope in the future. With American influence…
Why? Because we can put together a diverse population and where mistakes were made we go out to correct them and correct them…it all takes time. As I have stated before, Deomocracy is not an instantaneous expression, something with a pop off lid. It has to be built, and that takes time.
I know there are more serious things to discuss, but I’d really be interested in knowing what kind of Mac set-up you take with you reporting, including software and hardware (digital cameras,etc). Thanks
Here here Adrian!
I’ve been trying to get that information about Christopher’s set up for last week or so!
Come on, tell us, man!
By the way, more interesting news.
Thanks.
Adrian -
I?m carrying a Panasonic Toughbook, a Motorola 9505 satellite phone with the Iridium network, a data connection, a Sony digital camera and a Garmin GPS receiver. Throw in the assorted chargers, and you?ve still got a pretty light kit.
Posted by Christopher Allbritton at April 10, 2003 02:20 AM
Also, click on the link for the Discussion Forums on the left side of the main page and then choose “Requests”. I think this will answer your question about the gear he’s using.
Tony,
For fast moving, I guess what I meant was that it would really take the Turks only several hours to reach Mosul or Kirkuk.
As you said, democracy is not instantaneous. Turkey has been trying since 1923, and they’re still not where they are supposed to be. Democracy has to be IN the people, and that means that generations have to pass for that understanding to be at the ‘people’ level.
That is why, for the sake of everybody, I would rather see Turkish influence over the region, than a “democratic Kurdish government/state” in its infantry.
someone,
The theories have some sense, but it still seems like Turkey is needed in the region.
Here is the new US State Department version of the human rights report on Turkey:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18396.htm
There seems to be a lot of factors involved here in the Kurd-Turk conflicts. My question is, considering there have been Kurdish terrorist factions as I understand it that have carried out terrorist attacks on the Turks, are they simply fringe groups that don’t represent the vast majority of Kurds, or are they more like the Palestinians (of whom 80 percent or more support terrorist acts against Israel)
It just seems to me that the Kurds have been stiffed badly by both Turkey AND Saddam’s regime. Having been sandwiched by these two groups for decades, I don’t see why the U.S. shouldn’t accomodate the Kurds with any reasonable requests they have, especially since they helped us on the Northern Front and helped us with capturing terrorist bases as well, while Turkey screwed us in.
To be fair, the Turkish parliament DID vote in favor of allowing troops in, even though it was overtturned under lame excuses, but since 90 percent of the country is adamantly anti-US, you’ll forgive me if I don’t show too much sympathy for the Turkeys.
I’ll tell you one thing though, if Al Jazeera had a pro-Turkish slant in all this, Turkey has a real public relations problem on their hands. :-)
Someone: Thank you for the context. But x context. We’re freeing the fertile crescent, the cradle of humanity, from a brutal oppression that has spread it’s misery — even into Turkey — for far too long.
We’re just a bunch of yahoo cowboys, I know, but I’m pissed that Turkey cynically cut our strength in half, and let a bunch of people get killed and museums with 7000 year old artifacts be looted. Who wouldn’t be pissed? All of those artifacts would have been saved if we hadn’t had to go in at half strength. Too born again hard to even talk about the lives it cost, Turkey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All this looting and disorder today is partially the fault of Turkey. We’re just now getting those troops in. Yeah, so I’m pissed at them. Ragingly pissed. But I only blame their representatives, not their people, and especially not their military — who were with us in spirit.
The U.N. is x-ing dead, I hope, and thank whatever the same god we all pray to’s name is for it. Let it be so.
Your lesson rocked. Still digesting it. But my favorite church razing will always be that of hagia sophia.
Like I said, we are just a bunch of yahoo cowboys. But we all came from the same place, all of us. One love, one life, sisters, brothers, we get to carry each other.
I just want to see the middle east as the bright, shining beacon for mankind that it was meant to be — not in my lifetime but for my grandkids. I see a great and wonderous empire, not the bunch of petty dictators and corrupt princes the occupy the place now. Whether you like it or not, the future is coming, so what do you want it to be?
I have a claim on that territory too. Better hope the Irish don’t decide to settle back in their homeland; then you’d know true sorrow.
Kidding, we all understand you are still all hard-core klu-klux-klan racists over there; only phrenology matters in most circles of power. Clue : Grow up before we have to leave the planet and come back after you’ve annihilated everything, like in a bad japanese animated movie.
I mean, it’s messed up that europe’s biggest war was all about crushing a bunch of blue eyed blonde haired racists. We fought it. You, hell, we expect you to be better than that. Can you be please?
How far does amreeka have to go to prove different people can live together in harmony? And be so much stronger together because of it?
Mr Chopkoski, the situation after 9/11 is hardly ideal for exposing your private details - people got interrogated in (still faschist) Germany for sending messages from their mobiles with Bush 9/11 jokes - the German FBI intercepted any such messages and investigated those who were sending them
The Turks are far from an effective fighting force, but if their armed forces decide enough is enough, the will invade Iraqi Kurdistan. The fact that the strongly pro-US Turkish military kept the US outof Turkish soil, and didn’t even allow US planes to fly over Turkey, much less to operate from the bases they used in Gulf War I, means that they are ready to invade, damn what the US and everybody else has to say about it.
I posted the links so that people understand the situation in notrhern Iraq is not the usual white vs black like americans try to portray it - just nice Kurds vs bad Iraqis.
The Assyrians have their own troubles, and the fact that thye are split isn’t helping them - but they are certainly more important than the “Turkomans” in the area. Most have actually escaped to the west - the majority of Iraqi refugees in the past have been christian Assyrians
Mr peshmergadotnet has to explain why Talabani went on killing his fellow PKK Kurds after the “hated” Turks demanded it
———-Talabani, who met with General Staff, Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit, and diplomats responsible for South Kurdistan from the US Embassy in Ankara, said that the reason for his visit was “to increase cooperation with Turkey against the PKK.”
PUK leader Jalal Talabani, who has initiated a new war among the Kurds which could have heavy consequences to pay, asserted that they had begun a war against the PKK and had surrounded PKK militants. Talabani met with Ambassador Ugur Ziyal, deputy undersecretary from the Turkish Foreign Ministry, the other evening, and said after that meeting that they had been fighting against the PKK since the end of 1998.
Talabani asserted that they had cleared PKK militants out of their own region and said, “We cleared the PKK military presence out of our area starting in 1998
I think that Turkey has found our PKK policies satisfactory.” (!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
That’s what Talabani said to Saadet Oruc last year - in fact he was kind to the PKK, and even lost money because of it!!!!:
“We suffered and sacrificed a lot for the PKK. We had too many problems with the United States, United Kingdom and Turkey because of them,” he said.
Talabani described a very important part of the history revealing the secret discussions behind closed doors in 1995 on the PKK.
“During the Drogheda, Ireland talks in 1995, a joint U.S.-Turkish proposal, which was initiated by the representative of Turkey, Ecvet Tezcan during the talks, it was demanded of us to condemn the PKK and name them as terrorists, and the suggestion was a good part of the revenues collected through the Habour gate and taxes taken in Silopi. But we refused it since it was a domestic Turkish affair,” Talabani said, frequently asking the issue of his close aide Barham Saleh, who represented the PUK during the Drogheda meetings.
“We lost money because of the PKK, and at the end they fought against us,” Talabani said
what Cemil Bayik (PKK leader) had to say about Talabani in 2000:
Jalal Talabani is constantly making contradictory statements; from this respect, one must not consider this too strange. Iran’s former
President Hashimi Rafsanjani also called Talabani a political prostitute in the past. He does not have a consistent line or principled stance. He tends more to chase after daily profits, and,
because he does not think strategically, gets both himself and his friends into trouble. This style of policy has created a lack of
trust from everyone. He is the one who has seen the most harm from these policies. He has now come to such a point that he finds himself
having to constantly repeat himself and that his field for maneuvering has been constricted. He is experienced a rather pressed situation. In this hard up position, he is trying to find a way out
by engaging in enmity towards the PKK, taking support from Turkey and the US. There is a great probability that he will fall into a very
bad position if he cannot capture a balance.
His statements are inconsistent and aimed at deception. He captured about 20 of our friends and confiscated 3 of our vehicles. He is
keeping our friends in special prisons. He settled the Turkomen in Suleymaniya, took weapons from Turkey, opened two bureaus in Suleymaniya under the responsibility of a top-level MIT (Turkish Intelligence Agency) agent with the code name of Ilhami, and took a military team under the charge of Hasan Kundakci to inspect the PUK
positions. He gave permission for works to organize headquarters in Qoysanjak. The PUK positioned its military forces against the
guerrilla forces, cut off all our transportation lines, forbade all our activities, and is constantly arranging assaults to harass and
provoke our forces. Up until this point, seven small-scale clashes have occurred in the Qala Tuka area.
The PUK is making preparations for a broad assault. The political
forces, intellectuals, and our people must take a practical stance and dissuade them from this assault. The PUK has come to a position
of power to implement the international conspiracy in practice by holding Dr. Suleyman and Zeki at its side and giving every type of
support. It is wanted that the assaults that used to be carried out by the KDP now be carried out by the PUK. The PUK has taken on this
role. The PUK leader is trying to play up as national leader on one hand by liquidating the PKK Leadership and the PKK. This struggle has
been continuing since a long time ago. While it was carried on half-secretly before February 15, it is being carried out more openly since February 15. One segment of the PUK base and its cadres are uncomfortable with the assaults against the PKK. This discomfort could increase in the period ahead of us.
Other than that, the Kurds love each other
btw some people enjoy labeling the PKK as “communist” - the truth is that all three main Kurdish parties are communist, even though that detail is rarely mentioned in communist-wary US media
DD you are a very funny Turkish guy!
The link you provided
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18396.htm
Here are some of what that report tells: (These are just a FEW of the so called democratic Turkey, please remmeber USA state department has not the same recourse as Human Rights Watch but still read it.)
The Turkish National Police (TNP) had primary responsibility for security in urban areas, while the Jandarma (paramilitary forces under joint Interior Ministry and military control) …. Although civilian and military authorities remained publicly committed to the rule of law and respect for human rights, members of the security forces committed serious human rights abuses.
The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; although there were improvements in a number of areas, several serious problems remained. Security forces continued to commit unlawful killings, including deaths due to excessive use of force and torture. Torture, beatings, and other abuses by security forces remained widespread, although the number of reported cases declined.
The lack of universal and immediate access to an attorney, long detention periods for those held for political crimes, and a culture of impunity were major factors in the commission of torture by police and security forces.
There were credible reports that security forces committed unlawful killings
a police officer in Istanbul shot and killed Semra Kayacan in her car.
October soldiers shot and killed Mehmetcan Alkan near Sacan village
prosecutors’ failure to investigate and bring charges, and the failure of courts to hand down appropriate sentences were all obstacles to resolving the apparent impunity of security forces for such deaths.
In July the court of appeals approved the conviction of two police officers whose 2000 conviction for the 1995 shooting deaths of nine persons in the Gazi district of Istanbul had been annulled by the Court of Cassation.
The southeast region, populated mainly by citizens of Kurdish origin, continued to be plagued by unsolved killings
however, some members of the security forces continued regularly to torture, beat and otherwise abuse persons.
AI visited 13 provinces during the year and concluded that torture remained “widespread” and “systematic”
that security officials often used methods that did not leave physical traces
Repeated beatings; stripping and blindfolding; exposure to extreme cold or high-pressure cold water hoses; electric shocks; beatings on the soles of the feet (falaka) and genitalia; hanging by the arms; food and sleep deprivation; heavy weights hung on the body; water dripped onto the head; burns; hanging sandbags on the neck; near-suffocation by placing bags over the head; vaginal and anal rape with truncheons and, in some instances, gun barrels; squeezing and twisting of testicles; and other forms of sexual abuse.
Female detainees often faced sexual humiliation and, less frequently, more severe forms of sexual torture.
Government took actions against doctors for reporting torture
the Government opened cases against 67 books and leveled charges against 35 publishers and 48 writers during the year; in 2001 the Government opened cases against 42 books and charged 23 publishers and 38 writers.
The law makes it illegal for broadcasters to threaten the country’s unity or national security and limits the private broadcast of television programs in languages other than Turkish that were not world languages, such as Kurdish
October Abdulmelik Firat, running as an independent candidate in national elections, was detained for speaking Kurdish while campaigning in Diyarbakir Province. He was brought before a judge and released later the same day.
Non-Turkish programs were allowed only on state-owned radio and television outlets. They were limited to 45 minutes per day, 4 hours per week on radio, and 30 minutes per day, 2 hours per week on television. By year’s end, there were no programs broadcast in Kurdish or other traditional non-Turkish languages.
Violence against women remained a problem, and spousal abuse was serious and widespread
Trafficking in women was a serious problem
Kurds who publicly or politically asserted their Kurdish identity or publicly espoused using Kurdish in the public domain risked public censure, harassment, or prosecution.
Police exerted pressure against Kurdish cultural groups and hindered their activities,
“The Human Rights issues is been better, but still the Turkish police kills Kurds”
“The Human Rights issues is better, but still Turkish military rape Kurdish Women”
“The Human rights issues is proven, but still Kurds are not allowed to have Kurdish schools are talk about freedom”
Give me a break! Please take a anti-denail pill or something.
By the way::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
People please help this Kurdish women who was raped by the Turkish police:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/941996369?ts=1050193514
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Any plan for Iraq that smacks of condescension towards the Iraqi people is bullshit. That’s why the U.N. needs to stay the hell out. * the U.N. and * an I.C.C. for trying Iraqi criminals. * all that shit. Power to the people, all people of Iraq. (they should rename it mesopotamia, suggestion)
Give someone a name, and they’re easy to blame. Kurds and Turks.
Individuals committed the crimes.
peshmerga: I tried repeatedly to get a wiser response out of my father for you, but he couldn’t even stay to listen to those horrific attrocities you listed. He was a pow. He told me to say what I wanted.
I say, forget the old hatreds and work towards the rewards beyond your own lifetime. Think about your great grandkids, and mine, playing together in a field somewhere, safe.
No Mac? I’m disappointed!
My American friends have no idea what
kind of box they opened trying to be
“john wayne” halfway across the world.A
friend of mine in the US said his Marine
friend told him….”winning is easy in a
disarmed country on its last legs,its
after we think we’ve won that worries me!”
The old men in the pentagon have little
to lose sending the young to defend “FREEDOM”
like Vietnam.
and the end of April 07 for a Canadian view.
Good luck to you all and Im glad our government
wouldn’t be bribed into this illegal and
senseless romp .We were united in supporting
the US when attacked but cant condone blind
pre-emptive strikes.Canada has more troops
and ships in the region than all the phony
“coalition of the bribed”…..to support
the internationally endorsed war on terrorism
in response to 9/11.Bush’s “my way or
the hiway” has weakened a historic alliance
never seen on this planet and made Bin Laden
very happy to see a religous struggle
on the horizon,,,,,this was exactly what
he wanted. Roy
My American friends have no idea what
kind of box they opened trying to be
“john wayne” halfway across the world.A
friend of mine in the US said his Marine
friend told him….”winning is easy in a
disarmed country on its last legs,its
after we think we’ve won that worries me!”
The old men in the pentagon have little
to lose sending the young to defend “FREEDOM”
like Vietnam.
and the end of April 07 for a Canadian view.
Good luck to you all and Im glad our government
wouldn’t be bribed into this illegal and
senseless romp .We were united in supporting
the US when attacked but cant condone blind
pre-emptive strikes.Canada has more troops
and ships in the region than all the phony
“coalition of the bribed”…..to support
the internationally endorsed war on terrorism
in response to 9/11.Bush’s “my way or
the hiway” has weakened a historic alliance
never seen on this planet and made Bin Laden
very happy to see a religous struggle
on the horizon,,,,,this was exactly what
he wanted. Roy
peshmergadotnet,
I specifically posted the link to the full report of the US State Dept. because I’m not trying to hide the full picture. If you read any of the reports for the other 190+ countries, you’ll see that every single country has its issues. These reports generally list all documented occurences. Every country has a certain number of occurences. Overall, it seems like Turkey is improving with time, and that’s what the report says.
peshmerga,
Also note that the US has reports on all countries but its own… Ironic, eh?
RE: “I’m pissed that Turkey cynically cut our strength in half, and let a bunch of people get killed and museums with 7000 year old artifacts be looted. …”
Turkey be demmed, it seems to me that the all-seeing, all-knowing Shrubbies could have foreseen the looting and taken pre-emptive measures to avoid it if they gave a flying squirrel about 7000-year-old artifacts. Perhaps the only ancient objects our government cares about are those which have been converted to petroleum. Hmm, upon whom can we heap blame? Anyway, the Bushiites claim they sent in scant forces to start with on purpose for various reasons; it was part of their Divine Plan.
royincanada has hit the spike squarely upon its topknot: bin Laden must be chuckling in his chai right now, having gotten exactly what he wanted in a big way. Which raises the ugly point once again - he’s still out there, for all the ranting about “war on terrorism”. And we’re pretty sure he actually bears max blame for 9/11.
Win I cody turn 18 I might be a navy seal to be a diver. Because my dad can teach me how to dive because he dives all the time.
Cody
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
why did it not post last time im not writing that all over again.
5chjknlm;’
Very interesting.
I always enjoy personal recounts without the media hype. Down with censors and up with your great insight.
I’d like to understand more about Kurdish/Assryian relations in Northern Iraq during the first Gulf War, particularly during the time when the UN humanitarian relief effort, Operation Provide Comfort was underway. Can anybody out there help? Thanks. Christen