French students getting the "non!" from America

I have enough experience with the French that it doesn’t matter if your nice to them they have not been nice to us. In fact, for years on end they have sold arms including fire gun control and radar equipment to Saddam where Saddam would try to to shoot down British and American planes flying the no fly zones. In the Normandy invasion June 6th, there were only 170 French involved, non of which even got a scratch while thousands of other died that day to liberate France, their army was in Africa getting sun shine and only after the invasion did they arrive and took the glory with De-Gaulle to march through paris as if they really liberated France, If they want us to respect them they should have proven themselves to be a little more allied, not hypocrites. So no way, am I going to honor and respect false allies, they have been false allies for years. They threw out all Americans out of NATO, and just before 1960 they got out of NATO. In 1960 Premier Kruschev was about to order ran attack on Europe because a U-2 Francis Powers was shot down over Russia. Because France had gotten out of NATO and thus they had literally cut the ACE High Communications alert systems Turkey Greece, italy, France, Belgium etc, in that instant of time no one was able to respond to an alert. If it were not for the U.S. flying B-36 bombers over Europe and around Russia, all of Europe could have been wiped out in an instant, but France didn’t care, they knew they were protected even being out of NATO. In the Normandy invasion days, many parachutists were captured and later paraded down the streets of Paris, and as it was going on, many people especially women would step into them and kick and spit on the faces of the soldiers, British and Americans, who were trying to liberate them. No way, will I honor the French, they represent their country, let them prove their honesty with us..they ahve a lot to recover..

Wow. I guess we’ve forgotten all about Lafayette, et al. If it weren’t for the french, you’d be speaking with a british accent and kissing some queens ass.

Funny how the conservative monkey spankers whine when somebody doesn’t believe them, and convert those who don’t believe them into disloyal treasonous swine. And whatta you know! They WERE lying all along! “Oops! WMDs? Oh, yeah, they were ready to go at a moments notice, but they hide them so well we can’t find a trace. Pump some more oil, boys!”

Yeah, I’m buyin it!

Get off yer high horse. The average french person has as much control over their government’s rhetoric as we have over ours. Why injure the guy on the street by not buying his wine, or whatever? That is just plain stupid, no matter how many flags you wrap it in.

In WWII France has more than 800.000 casualties, USA 300.000…who has getting sun shine in Africa?..I think no one.

I dont know American history but, doesn’t help France the americans to fight England in their independence war?. The Statue Of Liberty was a present from France…are you going to return?

Why this obsession with France? maybe american people doesn’t know that almost all people of Europe and America (not North America) was against that war, even countries that their leaders support it, has 90% of their population against the war.

I have enough experience with the French, as i am French myself.

I don’t know whether you are right or not about Normandie, and other anti-French topics you have developped.

We know you have liberated France : thank you once again (i am glad you did: German is a too complicated language for me).

But now, we don’t support you for this war in Iraq. And according to what we can read in American and English papers everyday, this time we were right.

We have nothing to prove to you. But you have a lot to prove to Muslims in the years to come.

So, please, send back our students, and show the World how childish you can be.

Meric’s post is a bit too long for just one person to pick apart, but Liberte has got the ball rolling, and I’ll add my bit, and perhaps between all of us we can enlighten the chap.

Here’s my grain of sand:

“In fact, for years on end they have sold arms including fire gun control and radar equipment to Saddam where Saddam would try to to shoot down British and American planes flying the no fly zones.”

I’m not sure what “fire gun control” means, but anyway,

(1) The no-fly zones were, to put it bluntly, illegal. The UN never sanctioned them. See for example

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2490361.stm

(2) Hey, Saddam had other friends in high places that weren’t French:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/30/sproject.irq.regime.change/

My post might seem non-serious, but I’m like our host. I’d love to host a French student, but I really don’t have enough room for me and my 2 cats. If anyone looked at my apartment, it would probably be condemned. So I encourage anyone in my town to give a home to a French student.

Oh yeah, this whole situation is incredibly ridiculous.

Well, way is it that we all have laws in each of our individual countries, that if you comment a crime or offense your suppose to get punished for it, or at least have known what wrong you did. In the UN France, a family member, and a veto power one, has been told repeatedly about the arms shipments to belligerent countries, almost each month these issues come up. Look it up, each month these issues are discussed. Saddam belonged to some of these agreements of WMD, yet France for one, (there was Italy too who sold 90% of the mines to Saddam), Germany sold Chemicals, all these things are written in documentations, and Saddam never explained how he destroyed them. Heck, theer’s Gold in california, but it’s hell to find it. so why do you really beoaive saddam no longer had them, if you had a lot of power, would you show it! France has the A-Bomb, ask them to show where their pointed..that quesion is not any accusation, it’s a question to get some brains thinking I hope!! Mine included!! You ever wonder!! Where are they pointed!! During the Vietnam war, France pulled out, and America took the void, and all those years France (for one) was selling arms to the North Vietnam alo Korea)..it got so bad at times that American troops on the ships in the area wanted or would often want to blast the French supply ships out of the water as they passed to resupply North Vietnam and as they waved to Americans G.I.’s with certain hand gestures. When Italy was liberated and American and British troops entered Rome there was joy and happy tears by the Italians, but when American and British marched in the streets of Paris as prisoners there was kicking nd spitting by many people on the side. The French are an when they need America, but not the other wa around. Just recently in the Kosovo war, President Clinton did not want to get too deeply involved with troops fearing it could be another Vietnam, but President Chirac continuously begged and insisted with Un excuses of course, thta America “must” get involved. It turned out that the US did go in and did the majority of the bombing although also France and Italians where also bombing, but who gets the blame for atrocities, you guessed it!! America. In Italy and other countries, there were protests by communist, peace lovers, high politicians who one time protest that too many immigrants and refugees were running over into Italy and other countires of europe, thus some some how it must be stopped, but when the U.S. went to try to stop it, bang their crimianls!! Nice Europe, you guys would sell your own patria down the drain…really some ally you are! Blocking war efforts out of Aviano, Livorno, southern Italy bases etc, all kinds o manifestos against America, non against their own countries. NATO is supposed to be a family, just as you have a family, the reason Germany and France split where as Italy and Spain helped was because of two reasons, one Italy and Spain have had enough of this attempts of France (De-Gaulle’s old dream, united Europe with France as the dictator) especially to try and run and dominate Europe, and secondly France and Germany split knowing of the rich arms shipments to iraq. Man, give me a break too, even the Vatican shipped over 20 billion dollars of arms to Iraq before the Gulf war..or haven’t you people remembered.. There is more, during the years of the Vietnam war, France still maintained the bank Of Indo-China, all those dollars (not script) that was spent in Vietnam eventually ended up in direct French banks. Instead of France buying merchandise with all those dollars from America, (anything, ships, planes, clothes, food, etc) what they were doing was converting all those dollars to gold thus diminishing the American reserves, it got so bad that literally, the American economy was partly influenced negatively because they could no longer print a certain amount of dollars based on the gold reserve, France was purposively (indirectly) crippling at least part of the economy. France was booming, since they converted gold to currency, all on America being trapped in Vietnam. You don’t believe that, check it out. So president Nixon had to take the dollar off the gold standard. Do you believe (at the times at least) that the dollar was taken off the gold standard because of just America’s cause, or that France had the greatest influence over the forced decision? It was France that caused it at the time, France!! and inflation sky rocketed! I tell you, there is more, a lot more but I have to cut it short, I think of France and what it has done, especially in an effort to defy America, the more I boil. All these years, America protected France, while France among others did nothing but get united and developed more and more, it as directly and indirectly that Europe became united (and that’s’ good of course) but it was on America’s expense. Did you ever see “official” manifestos slurs against France on any buildings in America, but how come you see it in many of Paris cities, slurs all over while American tourists walk past some who can’t even read French and see what those manifestos say about Americans. They blame America for the starving children of Iraq and yes even Cuba, who is to blame for starving their populations, America oo that countries leaders? All this time Russia would arm up more and America had to keep up while Europe sun basked and vacationed. Do you guys really deny all that? I can respect a Frenchman as an individual, but I certainly don’t as a race of people. Give me a break too.

I saw that on the news this morning. How ridiculous!

As far as the US ‘winning’ WWII and saving the world, you forget that we entered the picture very late in the day; Many other nations were fighting for years before we deigned to make an appearance, and then it wasn’t until we got sacked that we sent troops over, so really, we weren’t all that noble.

Dont forget how USA help the rest of America in the second part of XX century. Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, etc…how put dictators and paid criminals and weapons in all these countries.

USA and France only defend their own interest..sometimes are agree one with other, and other times not. It’s a game of power and money and has nothing to do with democracy, freedom and all those good words.

No, we weren’t noble, why should we be with dealing with races of people in Europe all divided for centuries of hate and hundreds of wars? It finally took America to stop their BS and directly or indirectly unite them. They are now united not because of themselves, but because of America who after the war realized that eventually it could be united just as we are now trying to do in Iraq. (personally there, I don’t think it’ll work, but that’s another story). America poured millions of dollars in investment to rebuild Europe. What country will win over you and then help you get back on your feet? America did, would gay Pariie people do that!! Where America, goes with a lot of faults of course, but where it goes it usually tries to rebuild. Did you ever see France try to rebuild where it went!! Algeria, the Ivory Coast, etc? As we all know, companies, gangsters, Mafia, etc, cook the books, France for one is no different, they have been cooking them for years and most people know it, but apparently forget. Bush is wise to it, about time someone did..I was in the USAF in 1950-54, and was stationed at a pilot training base, we had all nationalities in pilot training including French cadettes, I can’t describe what and how they conducted themselves even though their training was coming from American methods and American instructors, on American land, well, I think most American’s conduct themselves pretty well in foreign lands, etc, but all I can say bottom line is that the French as a group conducted themselves in a very pathetic filthy manner, never clean, their areas were always un kept, Little discipline, etc..these guys were military, supposedly disciplined, they made us sick especially since they were military personnel who should have conducted themselves in a military allied manner, they represented their country. Even with all that, surely you don’t think that the French learn to fly military or commerical in France do you? Pilot training, the greater majority of it, they do in America, military and commericale. Allies eh..really now!! Enough, have a nice day to all.

As a Canadian. I applaud your attacks on France. If it weren’t for French help, you would have lost the War for Independence and my Loyalist ancestors would never have been chased out of the ex-colonies by the Ameri-Cong and gone to Canada. So, in that case, Queen Elizabeth II would be visiting all of British North America as its Queen.

Ok, France helped, Check “1” up positive for France helping during the American revolution..What’s the score now?

I figure it’s 50 to 1 in favor of America..

Mr. Meric,

doesn’t everyone in the world now train over the great empty north of Canada (and blowing the eardrums out of our mooses and innus people?) Ah yes, I forgot, you have Top Gun academy (a not so great movie). ok, I might be wrong about this, I am not a military.

And was Vietnam declared the greatest mistake ever made by the president at the time and they continue to send troop long after they knew they would have never won the war… (ah yes France withdrew because they were maybe tired of getting they youth killed for nothing) Just because your government could not bare seeing the communist win? hooooooo communism, what a big evil this is. The american government even made a witch hunt out of this in the McCarter years (if I remember this right)… Canada and France have communist parties (in Canada they rarely get elected and I never vote for them either) is it because we have better faith or confidence in our democracy than in the US where communism is demonise (and I would not even be surprised its illegal in the US).

Anyway, these two last paragraphs are insignificant.

Why do some American always bring events of the long gone past to prove their point by forgetting half of the story? Yes, you rebuild Europe in WWII and poored in millions of dollars, but would the US done this if they would not have a profit from this? After WWII you took control of the complete European economy and political system to instore your products and industries their to bring back the wealth on US soil. I would say this is worth a couple of millions (I think it is more in the order of billions) to make your country the wealthiest and most powerful in the world. (Ok, us freeloading Canadians profited from this too but not as much as the US: this is one of the reason my parents are part of the baby boomer generation)

Yes, your government rebuilt Europe at that time but Europeans paid, and they paid a lot! What are the latest statistics on world wealth? America owns half of the wealth in the world (maybe even more? Bill Gates could buy Canada or half of Africa if he wanted too) And you would think they would use this to make this world a better place, stop supporting dictatorships, explotation of childrens… (think about this)

Your government rebuilds when their personal interest are to be satisfied not the personal interest of others. This is true for EVERY country in the world, (France, Canada, Russia, China, UK, etc) the US is not better than any other one.

So quoting America helped France in WWII so they should follow everything US wishes is pure BS. You got paid way, way, way over your investment in Europe. It would be more natural to say that the US ows the world by getting so rich on top of every third world countries with natural resources. Maybe your government should start to share but most importantly to CARE about the well being of others.

I met lots of French (much more than americans) and one thing I would say, I still could not find someone that does not know their country is not always nice in their relations with others… same thing about all the Canadian, Romanians, Russians, Africans and Asians I met over the years. The only country were I found a lot of people thinking their country is more christian than the Pope is in the US… but, fortunately not everyone is like this in the US (you have hope).

You generalize that all French are not nice? Ok, some of them can be a little annoying but they are not called the “European Americans” not for nothing. But do I think that all American are ignorant about other countries because I encountered a guy in a pub in Long Island that was suprised that Canada had their own money? (yes, the same money that is worth the same as the one in a monopoly game) Or another one that thought that Canada was part of Europe? (this one I had a lot) Or another one that thought that Canada was mostly French speaking? No. Even when I hear that a lot of your representative in Congress do not own a passport, I do think that a lot of American know about the world around them (but aside from M. Alberton, they are very quiet I must say) I just have good material for jokes about a French, a Canadian and an American standing on the top of a roof.

On other matters, do you know that the US is the only country that has difficulty of paying their share to the UN and the US is currently blackmailing countries into signing accords with them so that all US citizens be withdrew from the LaHaye International Court jurisdiction. If your country politics are soo good, why is your government affraid to be judged for crime against humanity? Is it because your government thinks God is an American that Justice is only found in the US? France has a veto in the UN? The US does not have one? and do they always use it in the name of the world justice? You should check on what the US veto’s on in the UN before answering this. Personal interest is the main game in politics and the US is very good about this. Even when the government declares they were lying about knowing that WMD existed in Irak your country did not go to the barricades! Was this war really about fighting terror when we think that Osama is still running free in Afganistan?

I dislike politics because when I attempt to read between the lines, I do not like what I read (ok, I do not know everything about politics at least I can admit this) but what I dislike more is people that think they know politics but they can’t even see that their own terror problem is coming from within their own country. A good reading for you would be a little book from Machiavel called “The Prince”. After that, you will understand what it takes for less than 5% of the population to control the other 95% and maybe you will get into that 5%. (if you already read it, maybe it is time to revisit it)

Oh, and by the way, I would have been happier that France would have help a little bit more the American revolution so I would not have to undure the British domination of my nation in Canada… but then again, looking at what the american government did to the French speaking population in Louisiana maybe I prefer it the way it is after all.

Meric, first, grow up. Four words for you: spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

Second, you’re all over the map. Your writing is incoherent and most of your comments aren’t worthy of a response. I’d have to waste half the day translating it to some semblance of English first.

Third, you refer to the French as a “race of people” for which you have no respect. Makes me wonder what you think about folks here in America whose ancestry is as broad as it is deep. Enlighten us. I’m sure you’ll spin your response in an attempt to not sound like an even bigger jackass.

Please, if you’re going to continue to spout off, do the rest of us a favor - don’t claim to be an American.

jqp

Yes, your right my spelling is bad..but I suppose my fingers go faster than my brian..no excuses for that.

Anyway, you attacked how I said things and not what my intentions where..but hopefully you got the drift of what I was trying to say and not how I said it. Yes, I’m a proud American. I just want to remind some that the slurs Europeans blast to America, that it’s not a one way street. Practically every night it’s anti-Americanism “Officially” on many of the European TV networks, building wall Manifestos, newspapers, etc, I suppose blasting America gives them a sort of an orgy or excitements or a blowing off steam for some of them. Let’s blame America for every diarrhea and constipation problem we have!! After all, discussions of some other countries must be pretty boring. I mean how can you have a debate pro/con discussion about Russia or China night after night on the TV conferences and discussion groups? To pull support for your political party, what are you going to say on manifestos about say Brazil or Algeria, France, Italy, Germany, Canada, etc? But the United States of America, ahh, that might get votes, now that’s exciting isn’t it. Anyway, have a great day to all..

This post is a sad commentary on how petty we Americans have become. It’s almost like we have regressed in emotional age since our courageous soldiers landed on the Normandy beaches. Any American who chooses to Google the latest French commentary on the latest anniversary of the landings will find that the French citizens in that area still honor the memory of their liberation by the Allied forces. I think we would also have a hard time finding any signs of graffiti or other signs of disrespect at our cemeteries and memorials. The same could not be said here in America were the tables reversed.

The America being officially represented to the rest of the world is NOT my America. I am working toward returning my America to its rightful place as the example of how a country can be gracious, magnanimous, generous, and still able to defend the weak from the strong, instead of being one of the strong the weak need to be defended from.

May George W Bush and all of his warmongering greedheads burn forever in the hotest fires of Hell.

Your post to me, Meric, illustrates what the French call un “dialogue de sourds”. You completely misunderstood my point. The “favour”, the unit of “currency” well known to Americans, is not the basis on which the French government (whether the “Ancien Régime” or the Republic) has ever operated. The only thing the French understand regarding foreign policy is “interests”. If an action furthers their “grand dessein” (game plan), they will do it when it is feasible. It was in their interests to help to defeat the British in your War for Independence so they did. They weren’t looking for favours.

Another example from history is The Thirty Years’ War between Catholics and Protestants during the seventeenth century. The French Catholic Monarchy fought on the Protestant side, while continuing to persecute French Protestant Huguenots at home! Why? Because it was in their interests!

Regarding the Liberation of France during WWII, you need to understand that France like the US, is a deeply divided country politically. During WWII, most of the Right in France was captivated by the Nazi-Fascist agenda, just as today most of the Right in the US is captivated by the Neo-Conservative militarist agenda. So not every French person was thrilled by the Liberation. These “collaborateurs” were obviously afraid of what their fellow countrymen would do to them. The significance of de Gaulle is that, although conservative, he nonetheless revered the Republic and its ideals. (One of de Gaulle’s post-war targets was the French Communists, who had succeeded in taking over parts of France.) Once the war was over, the French reverted to their practice of basing their foreign policy on their interests.

As far as ‘Iraq is concerned, the French (and Chirac) hads ties to Chirac (so for that matter did members of the Bush Administration). However, if they thought it was in their interests to desert Saddam they would have. They felt that monster that he was/is, the greater enemy was the “external proletariat” (to use Arnold Toyunbee’s term), the extreme Islamic Sunni (Wahhabi) terrorists, and that elimination of Saddam would lead to the rise of the Shi’ites and a religious state in ‘Iraq, one more likely to supply the terrorists with Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Typo: As far as ‘Iraq is concerned, the French (and Chirac) hads ties to Saddam (so for that matter did members of the Bush Administration).

Bad French, very bad!

This post, taken from Warblogging.com, says better than I how I feel:

“The America I learned about in school, the America I grew to love, did not want to know what I was reading. The America I still love does not want to know what e-mail I send to my friends. The America I love does not want to imprison me indefinitely without a trial. The America I love does not round up immigrants and slam them into walls. The America I love does not invade sovereign nations and then occupy them. The America I love does not send money to terrorist despots like Islam Karimov. The America I love is a nation of freedom, a nation of liberty, a nation of equality, and a nation of peace. The America I love does not torture anyone. The nation I love does not make me angry. It does not make me ashamed to be a citizen.”

Yes, I forget a lot of history, especially since I admit I supposedly was more concerned with American history and since I now live in Italy, of course I know a little of that too. I love to read of Italian history. Still to listen to others and your history views of France is interesting to me, especially the political struggles and influence. I did not know that there was such a strong reverse to France’s liberation and that De-Gaulle had such a difficult time to diminish the communist influence. At least I have forgotten of it. Two sides to every story and opinion of course.

Incidentally, I worked for NATO American and then Italian forces for 12 years in Europe. before that I worked in Alaska on an air defense systems. Later Europe, schools in the UK, etc. But I later took a great job in Saudi Arabia with a Saudi-American oil company and worked there for 17 years, I would probably still be there if I were not forced retired because of age, grrr!! I found the friendships and work experiences with the Arabs and the Persian/Arabian gulf to be a great wonderful experience. So in what you said about Sunni/Shiites, yes, I have had a number of discussions with some of my fellow Saudi co-workers, a very delicate subject when the conversations came on. I know of that tribal and religious conflicts. At times and sometimes surprisingly, I found that they preferred an invasion from Saddam rather than to force him back. I was there during the Gulf war when the French, Italian, British, Americans were all in an allied effort, I was at Dhahran and Safaniya (near Kafji, on the Kuwaiti border)and at times quiet exiting, sadly to say, terrible war however. Thousands of Kuwaiti refugees in Saudi, and not very well liked by some Saudi’s…surprise! The American Dhahran camp town is next to the Saudi Air base, every minute of the day and night all I heard and saw was these planes taking off, unbelievable power combined. Now retired and bored in Italy I guess I get onto form discussions too much. sorry..:>)) Salute!!

To Pessimist..

Thank you, that is all true and very nicely said.

Best regards

The first voice of Reason concerning France v US:

“As the death toll mounts in Iraq, the diplomatic quarrel between France and the United States is becoming inexcusable. Both countries should stop trying to teach each other lessons and start looking for solutions.”

I sure wish URL linking worked on this page!!!!!

The above is from http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,4386,198171,00.html?

Thanks for the straightimes web site news journals…

To despise the French just because their government’s political agenda is not en lieu with the American government’s agenda, is total crap.

I was in Paris last week-end and met a bunch of really nice French people. I even met some nice American people there too. And we all had fun together. Imagine that, French, Dutch, Germans, Americans and British people having fun together. Not everything has to be about politics, you know? Greeting from “old Europe” by the way… g

Berry,

It’s nice to know that you had a nice time, great when politics isn’t involved..

Meric

It’s not just the French that are getting the shaft. US schools are no longer honoring exchange programmes with German partners either. My wife is a teacher at a German high school (Realschule), and she told me that the US students scheduled to arrive for a two-week visit cancelled shortly before the planned date. No official reason was given, but it was well-known that the US school was fervent Bush supporters. There were half-joking remarks that the parents were probably afraid that their kids might become sympathetic to the Germans.

Now the German school is reluctant to plan for the return visit, since it’s not even certain if they’ll be invited. A decades-old exchange programme is being sacrificed on the altar of feel-good patriotism and pettiness. I’m sorry, but I can no longer claim to be proud to be an American.

” Let?s blame America for every diarrhea and constipation problem we have!!”

u know meric, if so many people blame america for their ills, there must be some truth to it. think about it.

On a more humorous note, I just cracked up reading the bit

I would take a student in myself, but I’m a single guy in living in a very small one-bedroom in Manhattan. I’m barely qualified to have a puppy, much less take care of a French teenager for the summer.

Call me a bit twisted.

“I’m barely qualified to have a puppy, much less take care of a French teenager for the summer.”

Oh, the joke possibilities abound. For now, I will leave them alone and go back to my Freedom Fries. Sheesh.

You might say this is coincidental, but I happen to German and live in Paris. In addition to that I lived in Canada for about 9 year and therefore also had my inevitable share of US media.

“Practically every night it’s anti-Americanism “Officially” on many of the European TV networks, building wall Manifestos, newspapers, etc, I suppose blasting America gives them a sort of an orgy or excitements or a blowing off steam for some of them.”

I’m not sure what TV Networks you’re talking about, but it definitely can’t be a French or German network. During the last 8 month the media has actually surprised me due to it’s absolutely harmless criticism. No serious TV network or newspaper in France or Germany simply bashes the US. It’s serious, but valid criticism.

Compared to US networks (MAJOR NETWORKS) who run shows like “The O’Reiley Factor” or “Crossfire”, it’s laughable.

Do you know what the most pathetic word of the last year was for me? “Anti-Americanism”! What’s up with his word? As if it was some sort of a syndrom! Oh, you don’t like our policy, then you’re anti-American! Oh, you’re an American citizen, but don’t like the George Bush and his doings - then you’re anti-American! What do you think is more anti-American? Criticizing your own government or bashing your own countrimen as “traitors”. Would you seriously charge your neighbour for treason? C’mon guys.

The problem I see with this is disinformation. If 80% of the media is controlled by just a few companies, which happen to be owned by loyal republicans, then it’s easy to form and mold the public’s opinion the way you want it to be. Unfortunately democrats are too dumb to let their connections play - why? - cause they never had any in the first place.

Another factor adds to the trouble. Unfortunately - for some reason which I still can’t quite understand - much of the US population knows frightningly little about Europe. Not necessarily geography-wise, but also just in general. They don’t know much the people themselves. To quote and American ecyclopedia: “Austrians - a people which communicates by yoddeling” (this is no joke!!).

I won’t even go into history because history is a relative thing which many people can talk about, but no one can really prove anything. I’ve seen Canadian, American, French and German history books alike and I’ve rarely seen any quite as biased and incomplete as an American history book. I admit, French history books are also quite biased (Germans are too obsessed with feeling guilty the last century, that their books probably more anti-German than anything else. Patriotism in Germany is a big NO-NO. It’s a neurotic complex), hilarious compared to American history books which lack entire sequences of history, which at times are essential in order to understand the big picture.

I like the United States and most Americans I’ve known are fabulous people (except for Immigration officers, hehe), but despite it’s global supremacy in most aspects, it’s a country ridden with problems - the main one being it’s it’s upper-leading class. Canada on the other hand, always belittled by it’s gigantic neighbour, is a country which is as North-American as possible and as european as necessary to make it the greatest crountry of all (I’m a Canada-fanatic, so don’t be surprised). And France - well, just think what Europe and the world would be like without France (if you can’t think of anything, look up all the great things about France and frenchmen in an encyclopedia).

My two cents,

Vortex

DC indie rockers “Confidence Man” question war in a meaningful way in new single “Soldier On”

free download at:

http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/3204/3204233.html

or click on my name/url

(no I’m not in the band)

Lyrics:

Your attention please!

The dogs of war are off the leash,

the bombs all have our names

and I don’t understand

why it’s this bad man.

There are so goddamn

many of them.

The cowboy king has drawn

his line in the sand.

If I get a gun and kill

another human, will I

go to heaven,

will I be American?

Better pin a flag on,

sticker for the wagon.

Pride is never dragging

cause I am American.

But it’s American to question

any goddamn thing I please.

And I don’t like your suggestion

that I follow your decrees.

Have you ever seen an eagle

wheeling high above the pines

to land upon a windswept rock?

It’s so terrible and regal.

What I want to point out is

it sits alone.

It does not flock.

bon appetit: http://merdeinfrance.blogspot.com/

I cannot pretend to rattle off a hundred years of American/French/world history and the wrongs done by each country against another - I was very, very new on the scene in 1960. But none of that changes the fact that the U.S. was completely wrong to declare and enter into war against Iraq for at least a dozen reasons; some of them so self-serving that even the piggiest “Ugly American” would agree, and some of them so righteous that our federal government would never think of them.

The fact remains, also, that the U.S. president is a demonstrated bald-faced liar; as U.S. citizens we are being held in a death-clench by maniacal, right-wing, selfish, self-involved, self-glorifying little trolls; and our forces in Iraq [STILL - and possibly for years to come] are in one hell of a mess, as we predicted would happen.

I expect the student exchange programs are simply dying out from lack of funding, as American education and most other humanitarian efforts are doing currently. Unless the Bush family breaks out its collective checkbook and pays for its wanton warfare, I expect we will have no funding for much of anything else for a long time in the future. Downright depressing, ain’t it?

charles from france… you say it best! vive la folks like you!

For what it’s worth, the backlash against exchange students is indeed pig-headed. France and the US have given each other much over the years, and hopefully emotions will soon die down enough that they can relate to each other in a grown-up way again. That said…

Anyone who thinks either WMD OR oil was the reason for the war with Iraq is a bit to credulous with respect to American motives. WMDs were ALWAYS a pretext — those of us who supported the war for the most part may not have realized how flimsy that pretext ultimately was, but there were good strategic reasons for going after Hussein now and not prior to 9/11. In my view, the war with Iraq happened for the following reasons:

After 9/11, bin Laden stated three gripes with the US. (These are on videotape — no CIA-driven embellishing is necessary.) Two of those gripes related directly to US efforts to contain Saddam. (This is not a claim that Saddam was behind 9/11, just that bin Laden’s stated motivations were connected to US efforts to contain Saddam.) These gripes were shared by many Arabs who would never support bin Laden’s methods.

First, and most importantly, the US had infidel troops in Saudi Arabia. This is what radicalized bin Laden against the US. The primary reason those troops were there was to dissuade Iraq from making trouble. They are now being withdrawn — there is no need with Saddam gone (more or less).

Second, the sanctions the international community placed on Iraq had a devastating effect over the years, creating resentments bin Laden was eager to tap into. (I would argue that that’s more Hussein’s fault than anyone’s, as he went to great lengths to hurt his own people via the sanctions in order to get them dropped, but the fact is that most Arabs blame the US and not Saddam or the entire international community.) If you believe that sanctions resulted in 500,000 deaths (estimates roam as high as 1.5 million), the civilian death toll from the war (I’ve heard 3,000-4,000) was roughly comparable to that sanctions caused every month for twelve years. Those sanctions are now on the way out (though the US has been very slow to improve the everyday life of the average Iraqi, and I feel that’s where the Bush administration is blowing it).

Finally, bin Laden’s third reason was the always simmering resentment over the US support of Israel. This didn’t have a whole lot to do with US motivation for the Iraq war except as an object lesson to states who support terrorism, but it’s out there.

As far as containing Saddam, continuation of sanctions and the US troop presence were the only realistic alternative to war. Yes, you could drop the sanctions entirely, and pull US troops out of Saudi Arabia, but then Hussein would have rearmed and in a few years we would have had to fight his armies again anyway when he tried to dominate the Middle East, something he was eager to do. The cost would have been higher then than now. As usual, the international community would have asked the US to bear the brunt of it.

To sum up, the US had to find a way get US troops out of Saudi Arabia and end the sanctions without appearing weak to the terrorists. They did so, resoundingly. In the process, they got rid of a tyrant who bears some responsibility for the deaths of a million or so people.

No doubt unseating a sitting government — even a tyrannical one — is Machiavellian and bare knuckles geopolitics, and that offends some people. But to dismiss American motives as simple arrogance and empire-building is to miss the point entirely. There is a logical and consistent strategy here, and it deserves to be debated openly.

Whether you believe all that or not, I suspect the one thing I share with everyone posting here is a desire to see life improve for the Iraqi people. With Saddam gone, they have a chance. That’s a goal worth uniting behind.

I myself don’t like how the French GOVERNMENT behaved during the pre-war tantrums. I respect a country for voicing it’s disagreement with the policy of another; but when Mr. Sherac (spelling?) tells Romania to be a good child and shut up when it voices support for US policies, this I can’t respect - it sounds to much like US. I think France and the U.S. are very similar: we’re both arrogant stubborn and pushy. The only difference is that we can threaten destruction (either physical or economic and France can’t). No one likes to be impotent, especially when they see how big a boner the other guy can be!

That said, this freedom fries crap and pouring out perfectly good French wine is so F**KING childish. And when you realize that these politicians used OUR TAX DOLLARS to pay for the announcement that they’re changing the names of the fries and toast served in the commissary…. For all you Republicans who talk about tax and spend Dems, do you REALLY think YOUR money is in good hand on YOUR side of the isle?!? For more on Republican crap read my post at http://www.back-to-iraq.com/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=422

For FRANCIS, you sound sincere about wanting to feel good about America again and I truly grieve for you; but mostly for us thinking Americans. If you were to see the crop of crap the networks have programed for our consumption you’d here Laffayette and the founding fathers turning in their graves. We literally have peep shows that glorify slutiness (from both sexes), infidelity, dishonesty, abuse, etc. These shows are cheap and our peeping tom culture seems to love them (this all started with European imports like “Survivor” and “Big Brother”). Maybe my eye’s are a bit clouded by tears of disappointment and anger but we HAVE become a nation of fat, lazy, stupid people. What else would you call people who are willing to give away there freedoms so quickly to FEEL more secure, yet the same person asking for more powers to imprison (Ashcroft) REFUSES to further regulate the sale of fire arms. By the way, the 2nd amendment calls for “A WELL REGULATED militia, being necessary to the security of a free state…”. Read the amendment Mr. Asscrot and the rest of you gun nuts!

For me, the USA is like a very beautiful baby who’s turned into a fat, spoiled, whiny, bratty and bullying adolescent. As citizens of this VERY promising nation, we need to parent it better than we have. If your child is sick, you don’t kick the crap out of someone for pointing it out to you!! Our child is sick and we need to make it better.

Well that’s my rant about the current dysfunctional adolescent behavior of our country. I hope no one felt they wasted any time reading it :-) God bless America and the rest of the the world. God knows we ALL need it.

My (American) daughter is participating in a “homestay” in France as I type this. I spoke to her Sunday. She said the Frence people were really nice (not my experience, but I was in a different section of the country, and many years ago at that). I am grateful for people of any nationality who can put aside political beliefs and welcome a youngster into their homes. Especially when it’s my youngster.

I’m an American (USA) and also a traditional Irish musician - that is, I play traditional Irish music. I became interested in the music because my ancestors all came from Ireland, not recently-the last to come over arrived in 1885. I was amazed to learn that traditional Irish music is popular in many countries on the European mainland, Germany and France included. German and French students, also tradional Irish musicians, attending universities in my area, have joined the group I play with, and it has been a pleasure to perform with them.

I hope this unseemly chauvinism which some misguided Americans have expressed doesn’t discourage “foreign” students whatever their musical inclinations, but Irish music here would be all the poorer without our international visitors.

I won’t mention the military assistance that France and Germany rendered to the cause of Irish Independence, but many Irish songs do.

The French showed no sympathy for 9-11. Candlelight vigils don’t cut it.

The French showed no sympathy for 9-11. Candlelight vigils don’t cut it.

Why is it OK for the United States to invade Iraq in the service of its self-serving national interests, but when France opposes the invasion for its own, self-serving, reasons they’re suddenly perfidious, treacherous and an enemy of freedom everywhere?

Your above statement shows that you have no clue what the anger towards the French was about. It was not that they were looking out for their own self-interest. It is that they did this by publicly criticising the U.S and trying to persuade other countries not to help us. You had to strain real hard to hear any condemnation of Saddam Hussein or his regime from the French. Yet America was called a tyrant. This was not just a country. This( France) was a country that America’s troops fought and died to liberate during WWII. No, that does not mean that they have to agree with us all the time, but it damn sure means that America was owed the benefit of the doubt. We were not given that.

There is nothing to think about

Any new ideas?

Niccceee pagee

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