Tipping Point

Doesn’t “non-hostile gunshot wound” usually actually mean a suicide? At least by past accounts?

I was amazed to see on today’s “crawl” on Fox News this milestone — soldiers killed after Bush had his “Mission Accomplished” photo op equalling the number killed in the “combat phase” — actually explicitly stated. Even Fox News realizes this is some kind of sad milestone.

Shep— re: the “non-hostile gunshot wound.” Yeah, usually suicide, but who knows? Maybe the soldier took a fall and his gun went off. Just speculation.

If you use May 1st, you’re implying that the 138 deaths since then is significant because its the day that Bush declared “major combat operations” done yet people keep dying.

You’re not comparing apples and oranges though, if you want to talk about combat, talk about combat. In that case, the tipping point is a ways off, because a majority of the deaths in Iraq since May 1st are still through accidents, not combat.

So I don’t think I’ll be marking this date. It doesn’t mean anything. Soldiers die in the US in peacetime. When combat deaths from 3/20 to 5/1 equal combat deaths from 5/2 to present, that will be a “tipping point”.

Put another way, its the taxi drivers you have to watch out for in Iraq, not the terrorists.

:-) about a sad subject.

All the deaths are tragic (Iraqi, British and American)and we pray for them and their familes. There still is another way to look at it. In Vietnam the USA lost anywhere from 40 to 70 soldiers A DAY for a total of about 58,000.

If put in this prespective the “tipping point” is a long way off.

I thought that after Vietnam you´d stop to treat soldiers like numbers, as if they were just that, expendable. Is your child “expendable”? Your father? Your wife or husband? Are they numbers? They were sent to fight a war for false reasons, made to believe in lies, that benefits a plan that certainly is not theirs, made to believe that they are the good guys when, let´s be frank, for the common Iraqi they and those foreign terrorists who invaded their country are most unwelcome, with one difference though: the terrorists at least seem to respect Iraqi culture, and that is something the average american does not.

When you, Ordi, says something like that you are being incredibly rude to the families of American soldiers, totally indifferent to the sufferings of the Iraqi people, showing complete disregard for life. You say “all deaths are tragic”, and yet you reduce it all to numbers… calling it “perspective”. Go to Iraqi, be a soldier… maybe then you´ll be just that: a tragic number for the government to gloat on saying: not a big loss.

Vox, Regarding your “Let’s be frank comment” you really should start reading more material other than the Liberal crap your mind is poisened with. I read appx. 30 news/websights a day. It appears to me 85% of the Iraqis people want us there. For one to argue that getting rid of a cruel murdering dictator is a bad thing, well,we know you motives. President Bush was right when he said” Your either with us or against us” and we know where the liberals fall in this situation.

Only when the world comes together to defeat terroism, can the peace come. Which side are you on?

Lucy:

I read appx. 30 news/websights a day.

Well, if you are still thinking that the American media is unbiased and well informed, you are deeply mistaken.

It appears to me 85% of the Iraqis people want >us there.

This is pure hallucination. The fact is that over 85% of the Iraqis (except maybe the Kurds) want you OUT of their country.

For one to argue that getting rid of a cruel >murdering dictator is a bad thing, well,we know

you motives.

And we remember how the US supported that dictator when he was figting Iran. And when Rumsfeld speaks of Saddam, we only remember their meeting.

President Bush was right when he said” Your >either with us or against us”

>

Only when the world comes together to defeat >terroism, can the peace come. Which side are >you on?

The world has come together AGAINST the US. We are neither with the US, nor with the terrorists. Are you capable of understanding this???

Lucy, there is no way I am going to get into a discussion with you. I am neither pro or against America, but yes, I am against Bush and his policiy, as it has done absolutely nothing to improve safety, it did not reduce terrorism in any way (much the reverse), it is based on lies and distorted ideas (what immediate threat? where are the WMD? Liberation? Iraqis have been treated as less than capable of running their own country, and third class citizens) , and his policies are often based on the suppression of basic civil rights.

If that makes me your enemy, too bad, this sort of attitude of yours is what is uniting the world against the US, or else, is making the majority of the world watch as the situation in Iraq is getting out of control. A bit of humility does not harm anybody, this is a lesson you neo cons should learn.

“It appears to me 85% of the Iraqis people want us there.”

I can’t speak of poll results for the entire country, but if you limit the ‘want us there’ to a year, it’s about 56% of Baghdadi’s (note, not Iraqi’s). Beyond that point, numbers drop faster (although with only one sample, it’s foolist to try and predict trends.

A number of sample questions that could be raised, certainly, about the accuracy of such a poll, but it’s the only one I’ve seen to work with.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/pdfs/iraqi_poll.pdf

“President Bush was right when he said” Your either with us or against us” and we know where the liberals fall in this situation.”

How about when he said ‘Bring ‘em on!”? Or other famous 16 word phrases. Or the end of combat operations? His quote was stupid, as the idea was to qwell any type of public discourse, and had done so admirably until enough people pointed out that the only countries ‘with us’ were lying to their own poeple. (See: investigations in the U.K. and Australia.)

Vox,

You have no RIGHT to tell me you think me rude when I make my statement concerning the death toll in Iraq. You have NO clue where I come from! I speak from REALITY! My husband is recently retired USAF and I have a son in the US Navy currently on board a ship somewhere in the deep ocean! Yes, they are both expendable! My military MEN understand that if they defend this nation and the free world from terrorist that someday all of our children and grandchildren will live without worry of being BLOWN UP on a sunny Tuesday in Sept or taken from their bed in the middle of the night! I would give my life for my child or yours, would YOU? I am proud we have freed Iraq from Saddam! Only the Bathist in Iraq are not happy! When we leave is another matter. I am not wise enough to determine that but we should not leave to soon or things would go back to the way they were. Vox, you speak of humility but show none!

Europe thinks they are immune to an attack but they are wrong! As evidence with the current 911 style threat against the UK. It is the Western World the terrorist want to get rid of not just America! Remember they call the Western World infidels! ALL OF US!

Wah, Tell us all about your KOOKY conspiracies! President Bush DID NOT LIE nor did we go to war under false pretenses. President Clinton made the SAME claims in 1998 when he bombed the aspirin factory. “MAJOR” combat operations are over, Britain did say 45 minutes and still hold to that to this day! You so conveniently ignore FACTS! They are so pesky! You only say his quotes are stupid because you can’t argue with the FACTS! See outcome of investigations in UK and Austraila! Gillian is the one who “SEXED UP” his story! David Kelly, Tony Blair and John Scarlett, the UK’s most Sr. intel official to work on the dossier DID NOT! Those pesky Facts again!

Whenever I turn on CNN, it’s always easy to wait and get a count of how many Americans have died in Iraq. What I haven’t heard for many many months, is how many Iraqies have lost their lives since we occupied their country….

American lives are the only lives worth counting here… is it any wonder the arab world has so much hostility towards us?

The only way to “beat” terrorism in the end, is to understand who they are, and to find a way to share this planet in a way that upsets no one.

It sounds very bleak to me…. it’s probably impossible to please all of the people…. if there was just some way to calm the hate…

The entire Arab world (aka Arab Street) is not hostile to us. It is a small percentage. Note Saudi Arabia agreeing to let the US to audit books they found during a raid on the terrorist.

Explain exactly how we were to “TALK” to the 19 hijackers on 911. I’m waiting………..

The only true way to “calm the hate” is by defeating the terrorist. I do not hate the terrorist nor does anyone I know! But if it is “us verses them”, how many of us would chose them? Maybe the Saudi King, Tony Blair, Jacque Chirac, Vladmir Putin, and all the anti-war protestors all over the world would rather it be the terrorist that survive. NO not even them!

So our choice is to defeat them or be defeated! You choose! Which one is it?

ordi, you are beginning to sound like a troll. I do not believe the entire world is either black or white, good or evil, as you seem to, but I do believe that you are waxing a bit hysterical. Now take a deep breath and count to ten with me. 1 … 2 …

My point, Lucy and ordi, is that this so-called terrorism is nothing new. Bush is the embodiment of the American dream. Hey, the so-called peaceful American people are not peaceful at all. Your history is one of aggression against your neighbours. You are as aggressive as the ancient Romans but your major problem is that, unlike the Romans, you are naïve and stupid. That comes from your crappy educational system, which rewards jingoism, not knowledge. (You can be illiterate and graduate from a US high school, but not unpatriotic.) If you learned and understood what the rest of the world was like, you wouldn’t have had 9/11. I can’t stand Clinton, but at least he is smart, unlike Bush and Cheney.

You can’t eliminate terrorism. There is no end point. It’s like crime, or drugs; you can reduce it, but never eliminate it. It’s simply too easy to accomplish.

What it takes for terrorism (and terrorists) to win, however —- that’s a whole different ball o’ wax. What the terrorist wants is to become a revolutionary, and for his terrorist cell to become a guerrilla army. In order to do that successfully, the terrorist must gain the support of the group in whose name he claims to be acting. That’s where our efforts ought to be directed —- in making sure the terrorists remain on the radical fringe, remain despised by most people, remain hated, hunted, and feared. In order to do that, you have to make sure that what you do in order to catch the terrorist doesn’t end up hurting everybody that the terrorist wants to attract.

So it’s not so simple as saying you’re either with us or with them. As for what avergae Iraqis actually think, you might try:

http://www.crisisweb.org/projects/showreport.cfm?reportid=1098

The full report by Crisis Web relies on interviews with hundreds of Iraqis on the street. It’s a PDF. The report itself is pretty dry, but you can find the quotes easily enough.

Or try here:

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com

http://dear_raed.blogspot.com

Or this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/27/international/worldspecial/27CIVI.html

Ordi,

“President Bush DID NOT LIE nor did we go to war under false pretenses. President Clinton made the SAME claims in 1998 when he bombed the aspirin factory.”

That’s your defense? The actions of an impeached President? So what were to true pretenses we used to go to war?

I kept hearing it was to get the Iraqi’s back for 9/11. You seem to agree with this, so it’s going to be tough to argue with you.

“You so conveniently ignore FACTS!”

Pray tell, what are the FACTS!!! that I so conveniently ignore? That we have, in fact, found WMD in Iraq (like Limbaugh says) or that we have, in fact, decreased the amount of terror attacks in the world by our invasion?

I’m glad you are happy to have a president that says to ‘Bring it on’, and then goes on vacation for a month to raise even more money for an uncontested primary. Personally, I expect more than that, but maybe that’s my problem.

Advance Calc,

It is nice to know you are clairvoyant and know what schools I attended and to what level I obtained in my schooling. I agree our schools need to be better but we still do have some great schools. It is idiotic to say all Americans are naive and stupid and all American school graduates are illiterate. It’s like saying all Muslims are terrorist. It simply would be untrue. If Americans are so stupid why are they the ones that have invented the majority of the technological advances? Do you ever ride in a car, use electricity, watch TV or movies, get x-rays, use the phone, the Internet, etc………………….. How many advances are the Iraqi or Chinese people allowed to make? Unless you are willing to give up some of these things you should rethink your remarks. Note, I am not saying we have made all the advances just most nor did I say other countries could not, just that we did.

Yes, I am proud to be American and Patriotic! So what is wrong with that? German’s are proud to be German, Frenchmen are proud to be French, Iraqi are proud to be Iraq, etc. NOTHING is wrong with that! I did not learn that in school. My father taught me. Are you going to criticize him too? Shout loud because he has been dead for 8 years!

Have you been reading Norm Chomsky again? How brainless you are to accept as true that Americans no nothing of the world and that supposed lack of knowledge caused 911. How do you know that I have not traveled in my life and where I learned what I have? Notice, I did not have to flaunt my knowledge as you did by using an ostentatious screen name. Do you feel you are superior? Are you one of the “Supposed” enlightened ones? It seems Bush and Cheney are smart enough to beat Clinton and the Democrats most of the time. So who are the stupid ones?

Jan,

I did not say all was black or white, good or evil. Your words not mine.

Wah,

I was not in defense mood, just stating the truth as I see it. How do you know how I felt about President Clinton or which side of that argument I was on, if any?

It is funny; I never heard the statement that we were getting Iraq back for 911! Who have you been listening to? It sure was not President Bush because he never stated that. Why did you bring Limbaugh into this? We were speaking about President Bush? No, you were just insulting him. Same course as usual.

There is nothing I can do or say to get you to listen or change your closed-minded hateful view of him. You criticized my statements instead of debating them, you assumed things you should not have and made statements that show your biased, prejudiced, intolerant hate. Frankly, I expected better of you too but alas all you have to offer is hate toward President Bush. You are exactly like the people you that hounded President Clinton for 8 years and just as pathetic.

Ordi,

The first thing you said to me was to stop with the KOOKY conspriacy theories. What are these conspiracy theories?

“President Bush DID NOT LIE nor did we go to war under false pretenses.”

Again, why didn’t anybody get attacked within 45 minutes of the invasion? Why was the British dossier cribbed from 12 year old data? Why was a reference, known to be false, expressed to the nation as a dire threat?

“never heard the statement that we were getting Iraq back for 911! Who have you been listening to?”

My president. Yesderday, in St. Louis, he said this.

“Well, a great challenge came to America on September the 11th, 2001. Enemies who plotted for years in secret, carried out missions of murder on our own soil. It was a day of suffering and sorrow. It was also a day of decision for our country. As a united and resolute people, America declared: we’ll start the war from here.”

And he carried it to Iraq. How many of his advisors went on TV and used the fear of 9/11 to generate support for this war?

From the State of the Union Speech.

“Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans — this time armed by Saddam Hussein.”

…

“Why did you bring Limbaugh into this?”

His continued braying that WMD have been found all over the place is rather annoying.

…

“The only true way to “calm the hate” is by defeating the terrorist. I do not hate the terrorist nor does anyone I know! But if it is “us verses them”, how many of us would chose them? Maybe the Saudi King, Tony Blair, Jacque Chirac, Vladmir Putin, and all the anti-war protestors all over the world would rather it be the terrorist that survive. NO not even them!

So our choice is to defeat them or be defeated! You choose! Which one is it?”

That would seem to be the rub. You seem to see the war on Iraq as a natural and useful expansion of the War on Terror. Yet, as things stands now, it has expanded the terror. All out warfare seems a rather strange method to ‘calm the hate’, what with all the killings, humiliations, mistakes, lack of security, basic services, telling the world we know what’s good for them, etc.

“You are exactly like the people you that hounded President Clinton for 8 years and just as pathetic.”

Perhaps, except for having the ability to instigate congressional investigations into his behavior. And he has done a couple of good things, but not in this arena, IMHO. And yes, I am quite angry that my country was led by the nose into a situation that it wasn’t fully prepared to deal with. And that it did so alone (o.k. only 85% alone).

Things like Executive Order 13303 are just fuel for the fire.

Wah,

As I said, “Tell us all about your KOOKY conspiracies!” And you DID! At least I figured you right about that!

In your posts you spew so many of your erroneous beliefs, so much BS, and “KOOKY” conspiracies that I doubt 50 years of deprogramming could or would make a dent in your distorted reality. I came into this discussion because I wanted a debate and to see how the other half lives, so to speak. I did not enter to be a target for your anger and fallacies.

As I said before, “There is nothing I can do or say to get you to listen or change your closed-minded hateful view of him.” So I will not waste my time. Let’s just say we do not see eye to eye and never will.

This is Ordi signing off for good! I hope you have a nice life.

PS 30 countries in not alone!

Ordi,

O.k., so you have no wish to actually learn what ayone else thinks, just to dismiss them when they engage you on your own statements (see: ‘calm the hate’).

IHBT, my bad.

No 30 countries is not alone, but it is 85% alone (actually, it would be over 90% [145,000 U.S. troops ~13,000 others] alone.)

Factor in the payoffs, and I think it’s a fairly accurate statement.

Ordi, you are the typical American in a nutshell - ignorant of facts and fanatically patriotic.

You all remind me rather a lot of a bunch of sheep.

If we are either with you or against you, then you better start invading Europe soon - we’re all terrorists and all!

30 countries? Of which the majority are third world nations bribed into submission.

For someone who reads so many newssites per day, you have a pretty narrow view.

Lucy —

I agree: People are either “with us or against us” in the War on Terror.

So far George W. Bush has:

1) Failed to find Osama Bin Laden;

2) Failed to find Saddam Hussein;

3) Failed to find Weapons of Mass Destruction;

4) Bogged down 80 percent of our combat strength in Iraq while Al Quaeda threatens elsewhere and North Korea develops nuclear weapons;

5) Failed to hold Afghanistan against the Taliban;

6) Failed to provide basic services to the Iraqi people after the invasion;

7) Failed to budget for the full cost of the war.

You’re right, Lucy — people are either “with us or against us.”

George W. Bush is against us. He must go. We need a president who can adequately defend the United States. Bush is not that man. He is a failure.

Jim J, What ever money you spent on your education was a waste. Your typical liberal BS gets tiresome.How conveinently you leave out all the good thats going on in the US and the world around us. I look forward to the truth coming out and all you guys with egg on your face.

How sad it must be to live with such hate.Life is too short to be so unhappy. As for the Presidential election BRING THEM ON, The nine clowns that is.

i was just reading the beginning comments. i would just like to say 2 things about “noncombat deaths. #1 its hard to jump on an m16 rifle, and if you shoot yourself with a pistol it will be on the right side of the head. if the guy wasn’t in iraq he would very most probably still be alive. so,, all that mumbo jumbo talk they feed into your head is just spin to hide the truth. but you should be used to that by now.