More Charges Against al-Sadr

One of the outstanding accomplishments of Bremer and company in choosing this moment to go after al-Sadr is to have made any charges they make against him wholly irrelevant. He will end up as either a martyr or a hero in hiding somewhere.

Instead of concentrating on marginalizing al-Sadr, the Coalition has ensured that radical Islamists, both Shi’a and Sunni will be stengthened in the long run.

The US military reaction to the killing and mutilating of 4 US civillians seems to have been one of the causes for the current unrest in Iraq. The US Army’s approach to avenge the death of the 4 US civillians seems too heavy handed, with the implied impression in the US media that the Iraqi people have been ungrateful after all that has been done to help them. Could the killing of those 4 americans have been precipitated by nothing more than an anti-US, pro-Saddam feeling in Iraq? Or, could it be the killing of 13 Iraqis the week before that could have precipitated it? Huh? never heard of those 13 Iraqis being toast…hmmmm that’s because it is not news worthy enough for the US media to show collateral damage. But it sure is to the family and friends of those 13 Iraqis. Seeing 4 americans, alone and unprotected by tanks seemed to be a pretty good venue for distraught Iraqis to vent their anger for the loss of their loved ones. We reap what we sow.

Al-jazeera is showing heart-rending photos of dead children under the heading of “Falluja seige.” It seems, rather than defusing the situation, both sides may be falling into an our-atrocities-are-worse-than-your-atrocities mindset, and that always leads to an increase of vengeance-driven violence.

both sides may be falling into an our-atrocities-are-worse-than-your-atrocities mindset

How many american kids were killed during the iraq war?

600+, so far, isn’t it? They’re all somebody’s kids. Your’re preaching to the converted, no-name. This war is an abomination no matter who dies.

Not just somebody’s kids, they were people who were loved, cherised and adored by their parents. And now they are all DEAD. Not just dead from disease or hunger, but dead because they had to die to free the middle east and the world of WMD. Tell that to those greiving mothers and fathers and relax as they slit your throat, burn you and string you up on a lamp post. Anybody remember Timothy McVeigh.

Thats grieving not greiving.

Christopher— perhaps I missed this in your previous post— a thought struck me.

The only legal authority in Iraq is the occupying power, i.e., the United States.

Therefore, the claim that al-Sadr was being arrested based on a warrant issued by an Iraqi jurist is a lie.

Naturally, he may or may not be guilty of the charge of murder, but there’s no doubt we are being deceived.

It’s strange how… um… embedded journalism… works its way into one’s brain and renders it incapable of seeing the most obvious things.

Christopher: Come to think of it, doesn’t that larceny allegation bear all the markings of a typically “Rovian” smear campaign? I mean, what better way to “ruin” a cleric than accuse him of pilfering from the “church”?

This morning the front page of the Washington Post and I think of the New York Times too, showed a pictures of a US soldier carrying a body bag — and the text said he was carrying a comrade. Now I don’t know if I am correct on this, but this seems to me that this was the first time they showed a picture which makes me feel we are actually at war here.

The 600-plus US dead underwent military training and were carrying weapons. They were soldiers — full-grown. They were in a place which wasn’t their homeland. Al-jazzeera’s photos were literally that of killed children — i.e., babies. It seems really weird to me, not being American, to see that American lives are always deemed superior to other peoples’ lives.

Please stop talking about US civilians, these people are mercenaries. How many thousand Iraqies got killed just because some mad man had to go for a private war between the Bush and Saddam family ?

It was about WMD to go there ? No ? Ah sorry it was about terror to go there ? No ?

Osama never has recruited so many people for his terror troops as Bush is recruiting at the moment.

The US will never understand that this kind of wars are generating the opposit of what the claim will be achieved. That is why the world looks at the US as arrogant and trigger happy folks.

Bush and Rumsfeld are as much war criminals as is Saddam one. I just hope every day that the UN stays out of this mess. Non of the UN business. Mr. Dumbsfeld should fix it by himself.

As I said, they’re ALL somebody’s kids. That does not imply that anyone’s life is “superior” to anyone else’s…rather the opposite.

And I hope the UN DOES get involved, if only to help broker a political solution. To see this death and destruction go on day after day is heart-breaking.

The only thing happening here is that Iraqi’s are too stupid and prideful to realize that they’re being played like a cheap whore by the Iranians. Sadr is fully supported by Iran, including weapons and intelligence agents, and yet dumb Iraqis will sacrifice themselves in great numbers so the Iranian mullahs can play the same game they’ve been enjoying since the Revolution. Wake up people! This is war by proxy, NOT VIETNAM. If we don’t effectively kill several thousand armed militiamen in the next week or so, say goodbye to Iraq….it will become the 80’s Lebanon of the new millenium. Syria and Iran will rejoice, the western world will slowly withdraw and isolate it, and we will be back

to the type of situation that many Arabs seem to revel in…..blaming the Western World for their own failures.

Analyst, as politically incorrect as you may be, you are absolutely correct in your assessment. But have no fear, our boys will mop up these losers in a few days. These shi’a militiamen and sunni/baathist holdouts should never be confused with an effective fighting force. These guys are clowns and the fact that they’ve chosen to stand toe to toe with the 1st Marines and the 1st Armored Division only means that it will be easier to eliminate them.

You Americans only know force to solve problems, on the path to your solutions you create only more problems. America’s foreign policy is the biggest trouble on this planet at all. You will fail badly in Iraq, cause you don’t have support of the population there. As you said at the beginning you don’t need the UN, you don’t need the rest of the world. You are the rulers of this planet and what you want you do. However don’t be surprised if such arrogance brings the world against you. Your soliders are just at the beginning of what comes for them. 135’000 against Millions of people ? How you wanna win this one ? Next time don’t train Saddam in the first place. But I know you will never learn from the past, this truely distinguishes America from the rest of the world.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Americans don’t apply force to every situation. However, we understand that in cesspools like the Middle East, the use of force is necessary. The only thing these people respect is force, so we use it. You can’t negotiate with these people because they interpret any concession as a sign of weakness. Fat, lazy Europeans and American leftists talk of peace, love and understanding, but that just makes these islamic fanatics even more contemptuous of us.

Saddam here guys.

The Iraqi Shiites are, for all intents and purposes, Iranians. That is why I put my boot on their throats. Many were traitors to Iraq and fought with the Iranians. Ditto for the Kurds. And they capped that by fighting for Bush the 1st. Then he abandoned them and I swept in and killed the traitors like so many weak sheep.

But this silly notion that killing a few thousand will make a difference. You must be weaklings used to dealing with chickens. You will need to kill at least 50,000 to 100,000 before this is done.

Get you your killboys into those cities and commence the slaughter.

I live vicariously through Bush and his henchmen. Fill the sand with Shiites.

Get with program, Bushies. Strap on some sack you little Bush wieners, and go to Iraq. Come on, interrupt your little car salesmen careers and let your big boss bitch do her own housework for a year.

Out,

Saddam

I think what is interesting is that the US lead coalition withdrew its forces in some of the southern cities. I don’t know, but from my travels in the region I think that was not necessarily the best thing to do. While I think the US should avoid violence like we have seen in the last days with rockets fired at mosques, but at the same time they have to stand their ground in order to show the large majority of Iraqi’s that they will protect them. Withdrawing the forces more or less says well we leave, and you just fend for yourself against those insurgents. If the forces don’t move in quickly again to regain ground and create order the might not only loose actual ground, but also the trust of the people who live there.

RE: “You Americans only know force to solve problems”

I wish you whoever-you-are anonymous, nameless, faceless stone-hurlers would get it into your brains that we Americans are not one big lump of coal standing around rooting for Shrub’s admin. Plenty of us worked exhaustively on trying to avert war before it began, and if nothing else that should show you we do not share one common violent ideology.

Rid yourselves of your mob mentality.

Which other nations have all over the world military bases ? Which other nations have a CIA always interfering with other nations affairs ? What for ?

As a “democracy with only two parties” you have to excuse but people look at what is done out there.

I’m aware that not all Americans do support these politics, but too many do otherwise Bush would be already for long in jail. What a public pressure was there for a president who had an affair, but there is not as much pressure for a group of war criminals.

There is no mob mentality, however true sickness of a country that claims soo many things for itself, but shows a total different face over years. Without a broad support in the society such a foreign politics wouldn’t be possible. No ?

I haven’t seen hundreds of thousands of people protesting against this mad man in Washington.

O, Anonymous One.

There were large demonstrations against the Iraq war, not only in Washington, but in many cities and towns.

What you may not realize is that the government is using repressive tactics against dissenters in this country. Those tactics have included preventing people from traveling, creating huge databases of names, malicious prosecution, entrapment… the dead satraps of the Old Soviet Union would be envious.

If it were up to me, people with large mouths and probably little personal courage, like your debating partner, would be shipped to Afghanistan/Iraq and told to fight it out on equal terms with Osama/Al-Sadr. Faced with the prospect of fighting without Predators, A-10s and Apaches, without body armor and other amenities provided by American taxpayers, they might come to appreciate the personal courage that the opponents of the US have shown.

But of course, most of the chickenhawks start wars for others to fight, while most of the most highly decorated American warriors are “leftists” like Bob Kerrey, John Kerrey, Daniel Inouye and Max Cleland.

I assume Charles is referring to me as the “chickenhawk”. For the record, I am a former Army Ranger and would gladly dust off my old jump boots a for tour in Iraq. But, alas, I am an old fat man. I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of military veterans support our President and the War in Iraq. There are very few pacifists in our ranks. We consider John Kerry to be a traitor for his anti-war activism after his tour of duty. Bob Kerrey and Daniel Inouye are true heroes who have earned the right to say whatever they want.

Charles—-“What you may not realize is that the government is using repressive tactics against dissenters in this country. “

For instance, the protesters in Philly during the Republican convention, who were roughed up, illegally imprisoned, and charged with bogus attacks on the police. 3 of them were just acquitted after a judge saw video that completely gave the lie to the police assertion that they had been violent. But we’ve still got the FBI investigating war protests held by the left, and the Patriot Act to snoop into people’s library reading.

And Stoner, many, many of my friends belonged to VVAW in the 70’s. Were they traitors, too? Is everyone who disagrees with the party line a traitor? I know many brave men who hated Johnson and Nixon’s guts because of Vietnam, and just as many who despise Bush for his penchant for putting other peoples’ bodies where his big fat mouth is.

No-Name, as I recall, the protests against Vietnam were massive, and at no time did the government say, “Oh, gee, people don’t want this, we should stop it.” And I would guess you would not equate Saddam’s long rule with the agreement and approval of the Iraqi people.

@Stoner

Maybe you have the time to explain me how you can defend America in Iraq. Where are this weapons that were a danger to the US ? Did you get a map and measure the distance ? Al Kaida just recently did arrive in Iraq, sure AFTER your troops arrived there. Sure Saddam was a bad man, but it’s true that he was created and supported by your governments. There are lots of governments with bad people in it, who gives your country the right to judge what is good or bad and then invade at will ? Should the rest of the world invade the US just because your president bullies other nations ?

How you feel as a former member of an organisation that trained end equiped the Taliban, Saddam, Noriega etc. Is this really something to be proud on ? Are you really proud on wasting 80 Billion $ to fight a privat war while al Kaida(don’t for get their roots got trained by your government) is at large ? While your retirement system and your education system could use this money better ?

Must be a heroic feeling to wear these boots and carry a gun to show the world what are real man is.

Hope you did prepare well to one of the worst budget deficits to be paid off ever. When Bush is gone you will see the leftovers, isolated in the world and tons of not solved problems at home.

But at least you did defend your country somewhere out there and during that gave millions of people a true reason to hate your nation.

If the Irakis turn terrorists it is not because Osama or al-Sadr, it is because the Bush gang.

Yes I know lots of people opposed the Vietnam war towards the end of it. However the sad story is what lessons got learned from it since then ?!

There is still a trigger happy large army that feels the world is it’s playground.

Sorry for being not accurate on the cost, just saw more current figures on BBC:

Military operations so far: $143bn

Military operations (projected): $150bn-300bn

Reconstruction so far: $33bn (US $18.7bn)

Reconstruction (projected): $50bn-100bn

Extra security: $40bn-80bn

re Stoner,

First:

having been in the German military and during that time having worked with lots of US and other Nato soldiers I have to tell you that the amount of Rambo types like you are actually rather small. I have only rarely met soldiers who liked to go to an actual war. I was in the army from 1990 to 1993 from the first Gulf war to the early stages of the Yugoslavia civil war and let me tell you all of the soldiers I met who had to go to either of those places would have rather staid at home.

Second

only because you were a ranger you can still be a chickenhawk. I don’t care how many guns someone has, if war and weapons are the only ways someone can win an argument then that is chicken to me. Actually in my view it takes more to win without guns than to go in and flex your muscles.

Third,

I don’t really understand why John Kerry hasn’t earned the right to say everything he wants? Is that because what he says is not what you think, or because his tour of duty was not long enough, or did he not get hit by enough bullets? The guy was in Vietnam, he was there fighting, not just flying some National Guard plane in Texas, I think the guy has every right in the world to be against the Vietnam war, even to be a pacifist (which he actually is not) — you might mix up pacifism with being against a specific war because of specific reasons. I don’t know if General Wesley Clark has earned it himself yet to say whatever he wants, but there you have another soldier who is against the second Iraq war.

Stoner, whether you’re a chickenhawk or a Ranger, I have no opinion. On the Internet, no one can tell if you’re a dog. However, John Kerry went through as much fire—perhaps more— compared to Bob Kerrey or Daniel Inouye. He’s a brave man, an American hero.

There is an important biblical principle that is summarized in the Old Testament as “God despises those who use dishonest weights.” It doesn’t refer simply to sharpies at the bazaar. It refers to hypocrites, to those who judge those they dislike according to a harsh standard and those they like by a milder one. In the New Testament, this appears in Jesus’ teachings against hypocrisy.

What troubles me is that there are people in the White House who never went into battle, never cared for the wounded, never made a mistake and killed a friend or a civilian. Through their fathers’ influence or their own guile, these men evaded the draft or arranged to be somewhere in the Guard where they wouldn’t really be required to show up.

These men are sending others into battle. And not just into battle, but into the dangers of being in-country in Iraq: leishmaniasis, depleted uranium, PTSD. A generation ago, in Vietnam, it was malaria, Agent Orange, PTSD. And every time there’s a war, these men who have never faced the difficulties of service cut back benefits, deny medical care to, and refuse to honor— even refuse to go to the funerals of— those who do serve.

Those are the chickenhawks.

You’re free to choose those whom you call friend.

FOR Stoner:

Not everything needs to be held with a clenched fist. Iraq and Terrorism is like play-doh: the tighter you hold it the more it escapes between your fingers.

The US needs to be clever AND strong - not JUST strong. Eg: Rather than closing down Sadr’s newspaper, enforcing a an allied right of reply on the inside front cover. You can bet that Iraqis would read if only out of spite so they could condem it, but it would get them thinking.