BEIRUT -- I've been back in Beirut for a few days now and I'm realizing just how difficult this war has been to cover from a journalistic standpoint. Thanks to the seemingly random nature of air-strikes (yes, I know they're not really random) and the secretive nature of Hezbollah, getting close to the action has been exceedingly difficult. Hezbollah doesn't allow reporters to tag along with them and getting to close to the receiving end of an Israeli artillery barrage is ill-advised. So it's difficult to say what is really going on militarily. Perhaps some of the reporters who are embedded with the IDF can say, assuming the military censors let enough stuff through.
Anyway, in Beirut, the situation is growing dire. According to Nabil el-Jisr, coordinator for the Higher Relief Commission, Lebanon's power plants have cut down on production in order to stretch out the fuel left in the country, but most estimates gives us about a week of diesel fuel for generators and about the same for gasoline supplies, even with rationing. Three-hour waits in lines get you 10 liters of gasoline these days. I stupidly rented a car after having no end of troubles with hiring drivers, but now I just mainly leave it parked in an attempt to save fuel.
There are almost 1 million people displaced, and no one has any real idea of where they are or what's going to happen to them. El-Jisr said yesterday that about 250,000 were outside the country, but that still leaves 700,000 or so living in schools, shelters, parks or private homes of generous Lebanese. How long will they stay? Where will they go after the fighting stops? (A number of villages in the south are gone, simply wiped off the map, or with a high percentage of ruined houses.) So far, no one has any answers.
Further complicating matters is the cultural clash. Most of the displaced now squatting in various Beirut locales are poor, traditional Shi'ites. (Some Christians, too, but not many.) There's a growing tension between Sunnis and Shi'ites, and I encountered growing resentment -- and outright classism -- among Sunnis toward the Shi'ites. If this keeps up, Sunnis and Christians will be blaming "the Shi'ites" instead of Hezbollah for this war. And that's a recipe for social conflict.
Down in Tyre, my colleagues are forced to walk in the city now, as no one is willing to take a car on the road, much less out of the city. The Israelis have dropped leaflets saying any vehicle seen moving will be assumed to be Hezbollah and destroyed. Note that all the cars we journalists drive are clearly marked with big "TV" on the sides and roofs delineating us as media. No matter to the Israelis, apparently.
The roads and bridges out of Tyre are blown up anyway. The last remaining dirt causeway that was the only means of getting food and other aid south of the Litani was bombed a couple of nights ago and the Israelis have threatened to blow up any bridge that's built to replace it. Khaled Mansour, the spokesman for the U.N. in Lebanon, told me the organization is waiting for authorization from the IDF to build a bridge but so far, nothing.
It's incredibly serious because according to Mansour, there are between 70,000 and 130,000 people still left south of the Litani river, mainly concentrated in Tyre and Rmaiche, a Christian village south of Bint Jbail. In Tyre, the markets are closed and the shelves are empty anyway. He said that while there is no starvation yet, "They're running out of food very quickly." WIthout a bridge over the Litani, it will be impossible to get food into the region.
I've submitted an essay to the Singapore Strait Times which should be published this Sunday. I'll post the text or link when it's available, but for now, an excerpt:
The war came quickly to Lebanon, like an angry storm from the south, just hours after the Shi’ite group Hezbollah snatched two Israeli soldiers in a daring cross-border raid July 12.The Israeli response was swift and terrible. Roads, bridges, airports, the entire civilian infrastructure of Lebanon, which had worked so hard in 15 years to rebuild from a devastating civil war, was under assault because of the actions of an armed group inside its borders and a furious Israeli military that had been looking for a chance to get even ever since Hezbollah finally forced Israel from Lebanon in 2000.
Beirut, my home, changed overnight. Thousands of urbane, cosmopolitan people—Christians, Sunnis and Shi’ites alike—fled the country to Syria. Or at least they high-tailed it to the mountains. Within days, many came from the south to take their place. Mostly poor Shi’ites, they came by the hundreds of thousands. Filling abandoned buildings, schools and taken in by generous Lebanese families. After three weeks of fighting, between 800,000 and 900,000 people -- again, mostly poor Shi’ites -- have been pushed up cheek-to-jowl with upperclass Christians and Sunnis.
Also, here's a piece I also did on the Rachidiye Palestinian camp, which lies just to the south of Tyre. In one of history's bitter ironies, they're taking in Lebanese refugees.
The Israelis have started shelling or bombing Dahiye again. While writing this, a massive blast rattled my windows. I can only hope that something can be done to stop this.
Thanks for the update and articles. Sounds even more grim then the news makes it out to be. Try to stay safe.
“Israeli military that had been looking for a chance to get even ever since Hizbullah finally forced Israel from Lebanon in 2000.”
HOW IN WORLD WOULD YOU KNOW THAT??? Can you tell me if that is your scholar conclusion? Or did you in fact just repeat what you have heard from people from the other side of the border who have no way of knowing if that is true? You idiot! The first to say that LIE is Hassan Nassrallah him self in a speech in Al-Manar! He wanted the Lebanese not to blame him for the war so he said we were looking for a chance to fight Lebanon any how! How in the world will they ever know otherwise if reporters are repeating this propaganda without having any knowledge about it?! Why don’t you let journalists who expert in Israel establish conclusions as to the reason for Israel’s response???
You have just published (and in Japan, too) an absolute LIE! It is totally FALSE! Who had been waiting to go back in Lebanon?! Our 18 years old boys, whose fathers celebrated the withdrawal of Lebanon six years ago, after having fought the previous more than 20 years ago?? Or maybe my friends who were so glad to get out of there the last time?? To get back at Hezbullah?? Are you insane?? There hasn’t been a more massive majority in Israel than to the withdrawal of Lebanon. It is cold “The Lebanese Mud”. If we were looking so much for a chance to get back there, why did we ask the UN to decide on a Lebanese’ army deployment (1559) on their side of the border?? Why didn’t we retaliate in the kidnappings in 2000?? Why didn’t we respond to the failed attempt to kidnap soldiers in the invasion of Hezbullah from the end of 2005?? Why have we seized fire when the Lebanese government asked us through the UN, every time Hezbullah had fired at us during the last 6 years?? I’ll tell you ignorant why:
Because we DIDN”T WANT TO GO BACK IN THERE, and have been waiting for the Lebanese government to derive enough force to throw Hezbullah out, like they had thrown the rest of the Syrian forces out!
Why did the army strike roads so fast? Because we don’t want the kidnapped soldiers to be smuggled out of south Beirut, like Ron Arad was smuggled in a trunk of a car some 20 years ago and was last seen in Iran, and whose traces we lost all together, because Iran wouldn’t give away any information or even negotiate for it. Not because we want to get back at them!
Does the fact that we were ready with a response say that we wanted this to happen and had waited for it? NO. We have been doing everything to prevent it. And we managed to prevent it at Dec. (or Nov.) 2005, the former attempt to kidnap Hezbullah. AND WE DIDN’T USE THAT THEN AS AN “EXCUSE” TO RETALIATE. Hassan Nassrallah has promised time an again in his public speeches that he would kidnap Israelis in order to release Samir Quantar. Had you done your homework, you would have known to ask who ever told you we were waiting for a chance to strike, why should they be surprised at the fact that we were ready with a plan to prevent the smuggling of the kidnapped soldiers. Of course we would try to learn from past mistakes from previous kidnappings, and move fast enough this time to minimize the risks, even if a kidnapping takes place in spite of our efforts to prevent it.
Other than that, the whole world is mocking our slowness in deciding how to accomplish the stopping of rockets firing at us. Precisely because we weren’t ready (mentally as well), for the option of having to go in there again. There is no “Israeli Army” detached from the people, the army and soldiers are the people them selves. They are friends of mine from university, who have now been drafted, they are storekeepers, lawyers, farmers, accountants, musicians and so on, as well as the 18-21 years old young men who are the basis force in IDF who were drafted by law at the age of 18. It is extremely hard for us to go back in that mud like nothing had changed. That is why only today, a month after the war had began, the government had authorized a wide invasion of ground forces. And that is only because we can’t wipeout the rocket firing from air without too much danger of hitting civilians who are used as shelters. http://youtube.com/watch?v=96Qdlj-avPc&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G8INbHouC1I&mode=related&search=
“The Israelis have dropped leaflets saying any vehicle seen moving will be assumed to be Hizbullah and destroyed. Note that all the cars we journalists drive are clearly marked with big “TV” on the sides and roofs delineating us as media. No matter to the Israelis, apparently.”
It is a waist of my time to explain to you that Katyushas are being transported from place to pace by cars, vans, you name it. They have full warning about soon to be bombardments, in order to let civilians a last chance to flee. So they can move Katyushas around all endlessly and there will be no end to it. It is really unthinkable that they would use TV cars if those were allowed to travel. May I remind you that they have their own TV? Oh yeh right, you already know that, since you quoted Nassralla’s speech from Al-Manar just now.
In my eyes Chris, you are in fact a joke. But it is too risky tragic to be funny. Why don’t you leave any evaluations of the Israeli intentions to the journalists who are on the Israeli side of the border, and have at-least minimum knowledge and self ability of estimation of the Israeli intentions and ways of conduct, or conflicts.
You might want to think hard about your statement: “There is no ‘Israeli Army’ detached from the people, the army and soldiers are the people them selves. They are friends of mine from university, who have now been drafted, they are storekeepers, lawyers, farmers, accountants, musicians and so on, as well as the 18-21 years old young men who are the basis force in IDF who were drafted by law at the age of 18.”
You’re making the exact same argument that Hamas and Islamic Jihad use to justify suicide bombs in cafés in Tel Aviv. It’s an argument I think is crap, by the way, but I’m just saying you probably don’t want to be making your enemies’ arguments for them.
Always a learning experience, this comments box. Thanks for providing this forum and for all the work you do, Chris.
As I understand it, there have been some protests within Israel against this recent war, and specifically against the Israel aggression. There are photo sets of this on flickr.
Also, something that may be of interest to a broader audience of world citizens opposed to this violence is a “webjam” scheduled for next week.
As I’m sure many people are aware, there are those on the so-called “radical”“left” (especially in Great Britain) who would blindly champion Hizbullah, and cheer their “victory” here…there has been some attempt to engage these people in discussion here. Any of your readers are welcome to contribute, if they can do so respectfully. Cheers.
And take good care, Chris.
What is wrong with you? 1. This argument is a fact. 2. Anyone who is drafted is subjugated to moral laws that were carefully put together, so that there will be no need to explain crimes towards population. There are soldeirs are brought to trial for any violation of that code, whether it is insulting Palestinian civilians, or careless use of force. Even out of suspicion of a terrorist ahead, who could bomb him self on them, they have to go through all stages of opening fire phase of warnings before shooting.
It is easy to spill empty slogans about IDF being like terrorists, which you heard on Al-Manar, or in your pub back home. But it is insulting the intelligence of everyone who might have bothered to ever read you. This kind of slander doesn’t need a reporter, the average ignorant exposed to propaganda will do.
You compare IDF to the terror organizations, while you know nothing of each. OK, IDF you don’t cover (although you seem to think that reporting the Al-Manar story on IDF is in fact coverage). But you speak here of their claims, when in fact you know nothing about them, that they didn’t tell you themselves! Do you? What in the world would you know about Fatah or Hammas? Have you learnt anything about them? Read one study that was made about them? Had ever covered them from close for any period of time? I understand you have put together an agenda (out of pure ignorance), that makes you OK with their killing of innocent Israelis ON PURPOSE and with their bringing about the killing of innocent Lebanese by targeting from within them. But it is not only your ignorance about their actions in the conflict that is outrageous, you don’t know anything else about them, too. Nothing about executions out of criminal circumstances (Phatah), political circumstances (Hezbullah in Lebanon). Why would you even mention the Palestinian Terror groups? Had you known anything about them you would have already been familiar with cases of shooting just plain civilians (Palestinians) by these terror organizations, because they fought to drive Kassam firers out of their backyard in Beit Hanoon.
Still, you compare them to IDF, knowing absolutely nothing of each. If you want to suggest there is in fact room for comparison between IDF and those Terror organizations, have at least the self dignity, (since compelling to your ethics is useless) to learn basic knowledge at least with the material you seem to have an agenda about. Because frankly, your amateurism is costing us (the Lebanese as well as the Israelis) lives.
Now back to my argument. I’m not in the business of changing reality to suit my agenda. Therefore suggestions like: “You might want to think hard about your statement… you probably don’t want to be making your enemies’ arguments for them” don’t apply to me. I’m stating the reality, if anybody sees that as “the exact same argument that Hamas and Islamic Jihad” for the time being, I have no choice but to wait for them to know some more, so that they’ll understand my point is that IDF could not have wanted that war ,anymore than the Israeli public had, because it is the Israeli public’s sons, husbands, and it self who is out there risking his life, or back home worrying to death, and asking why is the circle not opened, in spite of every generation’s efforts to spear its kids from having to fight the same wars over and over again?
Chris, I am not trying to insult you when I am telling you those now days the main reason for that is amateurism of journalists such as your self. You repeat Hezbullah propaganda that is made to daze the Lebanese as well as the world, and prevent them from having an answer to that question, too. Their PR is meant for the cover up of their intentions. You only repeat their call for a cease-fire, that is meant for them to go on arming them selves for the next round, just like any cease-fire in the past. So that a few years from now the we go back to war, and the Lebanese will again be thrown into a war they didn’t want, because the of armature journalists in this war.
By the way, if you didn’t watch the Israeli withdrawal of Lebanon 6 years ago, I want you to notice only the part of the pictures from that in that link. Honestly, Are these smiles and celebrations calling home of people who are eager to go back in there??? http://youtube.com/watch?v=o0mQsE_PP7I&mode=related&search=
“a furious Israeli military that had been looking for a chance to get even ever since Hizbullah finally forced Israel from Lebanon in 2000.”
Getting even?
Christopher, the present Israeli Defense Minister is a former ‘Peace Now’ peacenik!
You need to get yourself to Jerusalem for a couple of weeks and obtain some perspective.
trying to argue with an israeli…it’s useless. these people are full of themselves, only see themselves as the victims, are unable to see the perspective of others, least of all the people whose land they have been stealing for years. it is about time the world pulls the plug on shitty little israel.
georgb: you know what? the fact that someone who writes such an ignorant comment is Chris’ supporter, demonstrates my case better than I could ever have done my self.
I bet you can’t even mark the number of times we pulled out of the territiries we “stole”, or dates and circumstances we came in there each time, or even just the first time.
thankyou, I rest my case.
Observer: Don’t bother, he doesn’t have any idea what “Peace Now” (Shalom Achshav)is. He doesn’t know that it was established to put pressure on Israeli PM in 1983 to pull out of Lebanon, and get out of all the occupied territories. He doesn’t know even who the minister of defence is, so how can he know that he was one of the founders of that movement, and demonstrated infront of the PM at the time’s house, day and night, untill he pulled our forces back from that war?
But he can play the expert on IDF, and interpret its intentions and tactics. Because he has Nasrallah to tell him how. Nasrallah is definitely reliable! he has to be! otherwise how will Chris write to Japan?
P.A.T
It’s a generational thing.
The reporters there are mainly in their 30s/40s and have no experience or memory of the years between 1948 and 67 and in 73 when it was the Israelis who were the victims. That’s all ancient history to them.
They have no conceptual understanding of Israel’s reality of having to fight in order simply to survive continuous attack for 58 years.
They see Israel as the ruthless regional bully and if pressed I suspect most of them would say it was a bad mistake that Israel was brought into being in 1948.
They simply have no idea of the complexity of Israeli political life. Nor do they understand the anger and fear in Israel today as all those who overwhelming supported the withdrawal in 2000 now discover the extent to which Iran (seeking nuclear weapons, publicly avowed to wipe Israel off map) has armed and trained its proxy there in the intervening six years for no other reason but to eliminate Israel entirely when the day comes.
Instead, they are reporting from the perspective of non stop 24 hour Israeli bombing, ghastly Lebanese civilian deaths and masses of refugees … this is what is before their eyes, not the million hiding in bunkers or displaced in northern Israel or the dead and wounded being brought back from southern Lebanon or the fact that Israelis see this as yet another war for its right to exist.
By the way, Hezbullah’s business isn’t forcing IDF out of Lebanon, but forcing it in Lebanon. But you can’t know that if all you know about them is what they tell you themselves, and you don’t do any learning and investigating of your own.
“I can only hope that something can be done to stop this.”
It’ll stop when Israel destroys Hizbollah.
Do you feel good about shilling for the bastards?
“Hizbollah’s ultimate goal, Goldberg observed, is to build an Islamic republic in Lebanon, modeled on that of Iran, and to destroy Israel and remove its Jews. Its success in extruding Israel from Lebanon has emboldened its belief that it will defeat Israel. Its ideology is fiercely anti-Semitic, not just anti-Israeli, with an anti-Semitism that is almost biologically-based: Jews are not only believers in a satanic ideology but are genetically flawed. Its leader, Sheikh Nasrallah, has said: “If we search the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, sick and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion we would not find anyone like the Jew.” And Nasrallah added: “Notice, I do not say the Israeli.”
They are filthy devils. Horrible people. They should be killed on the spot.
Christopher,
I know you’re used to all this flak and abuse, but if it helps you either ignore it or put it into a context that makes it more tolerable, keep reminding yourself that these commenters are people who (A) sort the world into three sections: Israelis and their unswerving and utterly uncritical allies, hate-filled terrorists who want to murder them, and ignorant dupes of these terrorists and (B) are currently fully involved in the cult of national propaganda that seizes so many in the first rush of any war, our nation, sadly, being no exception.
If you are not absolutely with them in every way, they will see you to be of one cause with the enemy, just as Americans who dared to denounce the war in Iraq in the run-up or in the early days were seen (and deliberately portrayed) as naive, cowardly, anti-military, America-hating terrorist-coddlers.
Those of us who do not agree that everything Israel is doing now is wise and correct are cast at once into the Smorgasbord of Evil. There’s nothing you can do about this except realize that, once the dust has fully cleared away, you will remain proud of your work while they will be ashamed to read the vitriol they poured on those who gave them sound advice and drew honest pictures of reality, just as Rumsfeld, if he had a conscience, would be ashamed to hear his “Old Europe” comments replayed.
Thank you for your continued work.
Thanks Chris.
I’ve been reading your blog since before the war in Lebenon started. It’s really valuable to hear the news on the ground from a voice you trust.
I sent some cash. It probably went to pay for a couple hours of gas… I wish I could donate more.
Stay safe.
the mere founding of israel has been a horrible mistake. it is time that mistake is corrected. boycott israel. desinvest now.
The revelation today in London of a massive, cordinated plot by extremiest Islamists to blow up 6 to 10 aircraft may give everybody a welcome cold shower of perspective.
It’s absolutely wiped Hezbollah and Israel off all the cable networks and even the BBC.
Sorry P.A.T., but you sound just like those pro-war americans back in 2003. Everything is justified, your country’s army is all made of family members and saints, and the other country has only terrorist and must be blown away. Yeah, you fucking convinced me. What’s the body count again?
Oh, look at georgb… he thinks “trying to argue with an israeli…it’s useless”, Those Israelis! Why can’t they just agree with him when he says: “the mere founding of israel has been a horrible mistake. it is time that mistake is corrected.” ??? Why Oh Why can’t they??? Because “these people are full of themselves, only see themselves as the victims”! You’re right georgb! Good thing you found Chris here! He knows! He understands you! Not like all those others who don’t understand! Never mind… Chris understands! You can wrap yourself up here with Chris. Follow his reports, they won’t enrage you! They won’t confuse you! The picture is very clear here, Chris understands what the problem is, like you!
cappeca: you’re right, we should not go in, and stay in the shelters, as missiles are consistently fired at as as I’m writing these words. It’s exactly like Irack, yes, you defenitly know what you’re talking about… since one third U.S.was under consistent rocket attacks from Irack that needed to be stoped.
I guess I shouldn’t be so hard on you, having seen whose reports you’re using to update youself.
Boddy count? I lost track after fifty killed by rockets. You can add a 27 years old mother and her infant child that were killed today by a missile that had hit their home. But I’ll be sure to let my everybody know you don’t think we should go in there, and maybe the rockets will stop by them selves…
cappeca: you’re right, we should not go in, and stay in the shelters, as missiles are consistently fired at as as I’m writing these words. It’s exactly like Irack, yes, you defenitly know what you’re talking about… since one third U.S.was under consistent rocket attacks from Irack that needed to be stoped.
I guess I shouldn’t be so hard on you, having seen whose reports you’re using to update youself.
Boddy count? I lost track after fifty killed by rockets. You can add a 27 years old mother and her infant child that were killed today by a missile that had hit their home. But I’ll be sure to let my everybody know you don’t think we should go in there, and maybe the rockets will stop by them selves…
“The revelation today in London of a massive, cordinated plot by extremiest Islamists to blow up 6 to 10 aircraft may give everybody a welcome cold shower of perspective.
It’s absolutely wiped Hezbollah and Israel off all the cable networks and even the BBC. “
The last paragraph catches the intent for the “action” in the first.
for those interested in information about israel: visit www.ifamericansknew.com
that site provides you with information about israeli crimes and US and UN complicity in them.
there also are first rate links showing you how to help the millions of people throughout the world who have had it with zionist crimes. boycott israel now!
georgb: ‘Boycott Israel’? Is that supposed to mean ‘work toward the destruction of Israel’? Thanks, but no thanks. I don’t think anyone here welcomes comments like that.
P.A.T.: Nasrallah has said the shelling will stop if the Israelis pull out, and a good bit of what he’s said has come true. If the Israeli army really wanted to stop the rocket attacks, it would be negiotating, not bombing (which so far seems to have had no positive effect). The death of Israelis is a tragedy, but if you have trouble counting past fifty, try going to Lebanon where an estimated 1000 people have been killed, mainly civilians.
Cappeca:
When you gather a little clearer view, you might notice, that I’m not for our going in (that was now delayed again, by defense minister Peretz due to an inside public argument about why should we pay with our boys’ lives to do the Lebanese’ government’s job?), or for the continuation of the war.
I haven’t stated what I want because it isn’t relevant to my rage and justified complaints toward Chris’ non-journalist work. Even if I were the devil it self it is outrages that someone who can’t even name the Chief of stuff’s name, and doesn’t even cover IDF or Israel, would pretend to be its interpreter, and report not even his own ignorant interpretations of its ways of conduct, but Nasrallah’s! and word by word!
But since you gathered that I’m for the continuation of the fighting, I feel ridiculous not to even let you know that I am not. I sick of us having to go in there, and I don’t care how the Lebanese government does it, whether by it self or with out side REALL help (this time) from France, or Germany, or what ever, as long as it makes sure the Hezbulla isn’t allowed to go on deploying a hundred meters from our homes, and petrol forces of the border, and isn’t allowed to attack us any more.
It is a fundamental responsibility of any sovereign state, and the Lebanese government is having a hard time doing it, partly because of Hezbullah political force among the Shiites, and partly because of actual military force of Hezbullah, and fundamentalist view, that wouldn’t be hindered even at the cost of another civil war. But I don’t think that’s any reason for them to dismiss themselves of any responsibility, and I don’t think it is acceptable that every generation in Israel has to go to war because of that neglect ness.
When I saw this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=67yVOfEkoBg&watch_response My reaction was: “Why the hell do we have to do it?!, she can take her “thankyou”s and shove’m up their ass!”.
There will be a swift agreement in Israel’s part for immediate cease fire (even if idiots like Chris will repeat Nasrallah’s propaganda that we have ran out, out of fear, or whatever islamo-shit they say) the minute the Lebanese government gathers enough force to deploy all over their territory, and make sure this will be an ordinary border like any border between two countries.
If we leave a minute sooner, it will be like the previous time, when Lebanon had promised to deploy but Hebullah preceded them, terrorizing even the locals who weren’t there supporters, and driving them away either to the north or to the south- Israel, were thousands of them asked for emergency refuge, if you can call families who simply drove their entire life in a car to the border of Israel, living us no time to even inspect their passports before we let them in, because they were hunted down like animals the minute we left there, by Hezbullah, who was in a hurry to deploy every where before Lebanon’s government thinks of sending its army.
So right now my family and friends, who are either in Lebanon, or waiting on the border’s lives depend on how fast will Lebanon gather that force. Two factors influence on that:
Will it be able to gather enough political force against the Hezbullah in the Lebanese’ public (like the political force that drove Syria away a year and a half ago)?
Will the world send a sufficient force this time to help Lebanon’s army, and not dismiss it self by anything less, like it did at 2000?
When Chris here repeats Hezbullah’s propaganda, just because he hasn’t got any knowledge of him self or tools of getting that knowledge, and needs to fill his reports, he actually detains the clear view of the problem, which is needed in to accomplish both two factors.
The Hezbullah’s PR is meant precisely for that! They want it to be over before these two factors are accomplished, so that the present situation continues, and another round of this endless war will be brought about when ever Iran needs it to be, until, in their view, they gather enough force/nuclear weapons to wipe us off the map. If these two factors are accomplished, how ever, there will be no justification for their existence. If they are driven up north, who will they fight there? Syria?! That’s why Nasrallah’s speeches are meant to blur the picture, and to draw all of the intention to some war between Lebanon and Israel that NEVER WAS.
The longer Nasrallah manages to do that, the longer it takes for a sufficient force to gather and help the Lebanese government take hold of its border. But every additional day it is detained, risks my family and friend’s lives, and Lebanese’ lives. That is why people here are so angry with joke reporters like Chris, who help that to be stalled.
PAT:
Do you think that Brigitte Gabriel lives without feeling hatred?
Nicolay Hristozov:
Please read my last comment. I know it is long… but it explains why an Israeli withdrawal BEFORE the Lebanese army, enforced by some kind of national force deploys, will again create a vacuum to which Hezbullah comes in again. Am I imagining, or does the need for the official Lebanese government to be sovereign on the border not obvious to you? I assumed it goes without saying, but if for some reason you feel it isn’t necessary, tell me, and I will try to take the time to demonstrate some facts about the results of Hezbullah’s deployment on the border, or of news from the French news agency about a month from now due shipments of Iranian missiles against airplanes on their way to Hezbullah.
I really would rather not to have to present the whole deal, because it might seem nonobjective, since I’m part of Israel. So please, read around, try to gather your view about whether it is satisfactory that Hezbullah stays deployed in south Lebanon or not. It doesn’t take to much work… you stated Nasrallsh had promised to stop the missiles with a cease fire, and that he holds on to his promises. Well, all you have to do is go over his speeches from recent days, and you’ll soon enough come across his promises to continue fighting Israel this generation and all of the following generations. So what? Is that sufficient? So my sons will also have to fight some round of “Lebanon’s mud”?
( I don’t believe that if I don’t mention the fact that missiles against El-Al airplanes were launched by Islamic movements the recent years, you wouldn’t have any other way of realizing why due shipments of missiles against airplanes to Hezbullah might endanger even traveler air plans that take off/land just a few dozens of km from the border, in the BG (and only national) Israeli airport. Nor do I believe you haven’t heard of the efforts of Hezbullah’s armor and sponsor, Iran, to gain nuclear heads, that are bound to get to the hands of Hezbullah long before Iran actually establishes a bomb that can carry it to Israel.)
So you see, letting Nusrallah of f just by promising he would stop the rockets if no one bothers him (not Israel, and not the Lebanese army, and not any international force) is exactly like setting a date for next round! Why should anybody put up with that?! Is it going to be easier on Lebanon to take charge of its territory, a few from now, if Hezbullah is allowed to go on building bunkers, and underground bases (it sounds so fucking absurd…) beneath Shiites houses, and store further ammunition from Iran there? Is it? You might say that’s Lebanon’s problem, not ours. And you don’t know how much I long to agree with that (believe me, we have our own problems), but the use Nasrallah designates all of this ammunition is out in the open: he promises to keep on fighting with every Shia generation until there is no “us”.
Do I really have to explain why that kind of cease fire, which doesn’t force him up north, or makes the Lebanese army capable of preventing him from starting another round at will, isn’t enough???
P.A.T.: I’m not particularly fond of Hizballah, and I think that the world would be better off without its military wing.
My point is that Israel is dealing with the organization in a completely ineffective manner. They’ve destroyed infrastructure, blockaded ports and killed hundreds of civilians, all in the name of stopping Hizballah’s rocket attacks (and freeing the captured soldiers). But there’s no evidence that the organization has gotten any weaker. Their support across the Muslim world is now actually far higher than it was.
Additionally, the Lebanese government has now agreed to deploy troops to the South in the wake of an Israeli withdrawal, a plan endorsed by Nasrallah.
Why not then let an international force patrol southern Lebanon? By invading Lebanon, Israel is doing a disservice to its own interests by inviting more hostility, not only in Lebanon, but in the entire region. No one doubts that Israel will defend itself if attacked. But its recent actions have painted it more as an aggressor than a victim. That is exactly what its enemies want. Israel should avoid fighting beyond its own borders at all costs unless it is in the company of other nations. This attack on Lebanon was militarily unnecessary and a huge international relations blunder.
Nicolay Hristozov:
And about the thousand casualties in Lebanon: Have you noticed that there is absolutely no count of the Hezbullah casualties in that count?? How convenient for Nasrallah that his worriers are dresses civilian, so that he can say all of the casualties are citizens but 5(!). I guess the Israeli forces are encountered by ghosts, or maybe don’t manage to hit even one Hezbullah guy, even in battles like yesterday, when 15 Israeli troops are hit. The Israeli count of Hezbullah armed men who were shot in battle, or bombed from air when driving launcher vehicles, or when firing rockets, is more close to 500.That is at least half of that number!
IDF is very careful with its count. But I’m not saying you should take his word for it. But please… until you have a number who takes under consideration the number of Hezbullah men among those casualties, forgive me for being a little skeptical.
Stilll, it doesn’t matter, because one child is enough, not to mention all of Quana’s children. I can’t believe I have to say it, as if it wasn’t obvious that it horrible in my eyes as much as in yours. And dare to say even more, because the question of usage of kids and the mental price that the society in which I live in has to pay for that is familiar to me as any Israeli from before we kissed for the first time.
You have no idea. At the end of day, it doesn’t matter that they target from with in population, or that while we evacuate the kids from the front line, (sometimes to the houses of people they don’t even know), they gather them as shields in the front line. It doesn’t matter that an old public polemics about it preceded the bombardments, and that the legal advisor to the government determined that under international war laws, if a population is used as shelter for ammunition or attacks it makes it legal to strike the structure, because who murdered them is those who took shelter among them. It doesn’t matter. Because the pilot that had to fire is only there for a few years. Afterwards he is a regular citizen. One you meet on the roads or in the supermarket. The Gaza soldier who disarms a fourteen years old boy of his a explosive built on the watch stand, or shoots a fourteen years old boy the next day, even if he is among the crowd from which the fire had started, or fires him self… that soldier could be my son, my future husband, or the man driving the car behind you. What do you think it does to us a society, that every forth citizen is met with war among civilians? There are even resources about the connection between that and the violence on the road (enormous number of car accidents) or the mental problems of population. Do you know how height the number of suicides among soldiers in Israel?, you would be astonished. We don’t want that. We don’t care if people like Chris say we ran out when we withdrawal. All of our actions in the past 15 years are meant to withdrawal, withdrawal, withdrawal. In the occupied territories as well as in Lebanon. We don’t care how it looks like, or if people like Chris call us losers for that. We have so many other things to dill with. There’s a joke in Israel that heaven is opening the paper to find news from the stock market as a headline. That is all we try to achieve.
But a tragic thing happened. While we pulled out and closed the gates from behind us, Islamic Iranian movements set out to convince the populations (Shiites in Lebanon, and Palestinians in Gaza) that it is proof that we are weak enough to not forsake the old Islamic dream to wipe us out all together. Look, even Chris here repeated Nasrallah’s guide line that we were forced out of Lebanon, (and therefore can be forced out all together to drown in sea). That’s why Palestinians in Gaza who want a new future for themselves are set back, not having any ability to use the opportunity to start building their own state. That is why the Lebanese, who want to be a normal sovereign democratic state, are set back as well.
They are cynically using our wish for a normal non fighting life in our own borders to fuel a fundamentalist old hope of wiping us out. And they are cynically using the difference between hurting civilians in purpose and hurting them in spite of your every effort to avoid it, to make sure they can go on fueling that war, and holding back any chance of normalization, that will rob them of there only justification of existence.
It’s so Ironic and depressing. Never mind. You don’t have to get it all. The bottom line is the war should stop as fast as possible, so a deployment of an enforced Lebanese army who can really (with the help of serious forces) has to gather, determined to put an end to the Hezbulla’s ability to start wars from Lebanon ever again (without the Lebanese official decision of war, that is), AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. (And in reall way, not like last time, at 2000).
israel defies, and will just continue to defy, all un resolutions that demand israel gives back land they have stolen from the palestinians and from lebanon and syria. they did leave a part of lebanon, but kept another part on the grounds that the golan heights, which they also illegaly occupy, could be shot at from there. they abonded three settlements and build five new ones at the same time. israel violates the law on each and every step. they will simply continue to do that if they world does not stop them. a boycott has a better chance to win their attention than fruitless terrorism which is only something israeli right-wingers can exploit to commit even more crimes. there will be no peace as long as israel is stomping on the rights of it’s neighbours.
btw, forget about the foreign troops. germany has no troops left to send and france would not be so foolish to sacrifice their soldiers for a war that is none of france’s business.
Meanwhile, in Darfur…. Oh, wait, there’s no oil in Darfur.
Chris … the cables are reporting that at least 1000 IDF possibly more are at this moment withdrawing from southern Lebanon.
One has to assume this is a “behind the scenes negotiated” goodwill gesture to pave the way for a UN ceasefire deal, Friday.
It will be interesting to see if Hezbollah now makes a similar gesture. If so we will know the deal is “on”.
P.A.T …you seem pretty much spot on in your description of Israel intentions.
It can be seen now in retrospect that Israel’s strategy right from the start was to force/enable the internationals to enforce Resolution 1559 rather than risking getting bogged down in Lebanon again with a Sharon-style 1982 ground invasion.
Only explanation I can think of why Israel committed so few troops to the ground war - 2-3000 initially for about 10 days, then 10,000 to re-establish the old security zone.
The massing of 40K troops and the threat to go to Litani River appear to have been to increase pressure to get a satisfactory (from their POV) UN resolution.
Of course it will not resolve itself as easily as that (!) it never does. But if the French or others (maybe even my country Australia) have agreed to participate in a beefed up Unifil force then its a promising start, at least.
For anyone interested in the shape of the UN deal, Haaretz.com has good coverage.
Nicolay Hristozov:
There are indications that Hezbullah is weakened. But It doesn’t matter, even if it weren’t weakened, if the Lebanese government manages to CARRY OUT its deployment this time, and with REAL help (not like the joke of UN forces, even Koffie Annan admitted were totally inefficient… took him time) you can’t say it would have happened had our actions not taken place and not put the pressure to finally put an end to it, can you? Effectiveness is therefore yet to be determent.
I’m aware of Lebanon’s decision to deploy. Everybody here knows it by hurt… but that same promise was made at 2000 as well. Nasrallah has endorsed this decision, while rejected the American-French offer (and called it “unfair”), exactly because the second one guarantees there will be no vacuum left after Israel’s withdrawal, that enables Hezbullah to once again keep Lebanon from fulfilling its promise. Notice the difference between the two. The latter (French-American that was rejected by Lebanon) makes sure we leave simultaneously with the deployment of the Lebanese-National force. Nasrallah had rejected it because it would allow him to take advantage of any vacuum, as in 2000. Senyora had rejected it, because until a national force is gathered up, he’ll have to deploy by him self. Only he doesn’t estimate he can do it, and is afraid of a civil war with Nasrallah’s forces. That is exactly why the gather up of these national forces has got to be swift! But still, it takes time. Are we here being to suspicious when we imagine that the reason for that is you won’t find to many French soldiers who are willing to take the risk of real confrontation with Hezbullah? Because that is the common belief here… The forces have been waiting on the border over two weeks, until we decide if that in fact is the case. I don’t want it to be the case, because it means that someone I’m really fond of will go in there, too. But if the public opinion here is finally convinced that is the case, and if the government comes to that conclusion out of negotiations with the governments, that are supposed to gather these forces, than the forces waiting aside the border will have to go in that mud and clean it themselves… at I don’t want to try and estimate what cost of lives.
This is important. The issue of the kidnapped soldiers is far more strategic than the three soldiers themselves (who have to be returned). It is no secret that we would pay any price for them, because they are just boys drafted by law. We couldn’t look at ourselves in the mirror and ask every parent to send his child, once he reached 18, had we not done anything to get them back. You might now ask: “then why not negotiate for them?” that’s why I’m writing now. To try and explain why now it has already grown to the measurements of a strategic threat.
We traded the three bodies (The Hezbullah wouldn’t even let us know whether they have been kept alive or not) of soldiers and one citizen who were kidnapped at the year 2000 for thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese that were locked up FOR TERROR ACTIONS. One of which was Diranee. That man drove around with Ron Arad in the trank of his car around Lebanon, for weeks, trying to get sell him for the highest price.
Anyhow, what happened after that was that Nasralla had started bragging about it and mocking Hamas and other Islamic groups, they had never achieved what he had. As part of the endless competition between them who gets to be Iran’s favorite, which means gets the greatest funds from Iran. Since the withdrawal from Gaza there has been leakage of shababs from Palestinian terror groups to the Hezbullah. Haled Mashal, who sits in Beirut, and in competition him self with the local Hamas head: Ismail Haneya, ordered the local Hamas to start planning their own kidnaps. The last month there were attempts to kidnap NOT ONLY SOLDEIRS but civilians. One of them was of an American Jewish student, who was released due to his American passport. One that failed was of two teenaged girls in a bus stop. Another one was of a female soldier near Beer-Sheva, the very inside of Israel! There was that cab driver as well, maybe 50 years old, who was released by Commando soldiers.
Along with the kidnapping of the Gilad Shalit from our side of the border neer Gaza there was a kidnapping of Eliyahu Asheri, a teenager, from OUR CAPITOL CITY, Jerusalem. Since his kidnappers were from the west bank, were we still have intelligence, they were afraid to keep him hidden, because that way it is easier to track them. So they decided to kill him, and negotiate for him without answering whether he is alive or dead. THE SAME THING NASSRALHAH DID AT HIS PREVIOUS KIDNAPS! We hunted them down, and they led us to the body. But that kidnap took place right next to the Gaza kidnap, a month before the Lebanon kidnap.
Now: Imagine what happens if we once again negotiate with Nasrallah for them, and I don’t have to tell you the proportions of his demands. (this time among them is the freedom Samir Quantar, look him up on the Internet, not the site the Hezbullah built him, but documentations of what he had done). What will happen is we keep the motivation for kidnapping rising! The competition between those organizations will never stop! But more importantly you have to realize: THESE ARE NOT KIDNAPS FAR AWAY IN IRACK OR IN WAR! THE KIDNAPS HERE ARE FROM OUR HOME ! NOWHERE WILL BE SAFE!!!
We live with the Palestinians! They come in here all the time. Two of the kidnappings were from Jerusalem! (cab driver, and Eliyahoo Asheri), if this goes on no were will be safe for Israelis INSIDE ISRAEL. And what about patrollers of the border? How shell we keep them from getting kidnapped? Maybe live the border unguarded???
Imagine it for a minute! Imagine the kidnappings of British people to Irack didn’t take place in Irack, BUT FROM LONDON! Would be able to live safely with continuance consistent attempts to kidnap you from your on territory??????
That is why it is an ASTATEGIC need to bring the soldiers back WITHOUT MOTIVATING FURTHER KIDNAPS THIS TIME!!!!! Other wise life in Israel will be impossible.
I ment to say: “Haled Mashal, who sits in Damascus”
and Adam Stanhope: frankly, I don’t give a damn whether Brigitte Gabriel hates anybody or not.
As an American Jew, it is deeply saddening to see Israel committing war crimes with U.S. made weapons. There were plenty of opportunities for a diplomatic resolution to Hizballah’s capture of 2 Israeli soldiers. Instead the Israelis bombed and strafed civilians in a form of collective punishment.
All too often Israelis and Jews wear the cloak of victimhood. In this case Israel decided to kill, and strafe, and bomb, and yet continue to cry out that Israelis are the victims.
I don’t buy it. Israel is committing egregious and horrific war crimes that unfortunately are already provoking a backlash throughout the world.
When Hizballah indiscriminately fires at civilians, I condemn such an action. When Israel kills 1000 Lebanese (hundreds of them children), I condmen such an action.
There is no security without peace, and peace is something that Israel conflates with subjugation of others.
FYI former President Jimmy Carter posted an article in the Guardian newspaper criticizing Israel’s extreme response in Lebanon and said the talking of Israeli soldiers in the past was frequently used to barter for prisoner exchanges. I found it interesting that he did not post the article in a U.S. paper or go on one of our “fine” cable news shows.
Stephan:
As an Israeli Jew I find it extremely full of shit on your part to use your being a Jew as an excuse to throw around war crimes accusations, you have nothing to base on. I think I mentioned that issue in my comments, you can either read them, or open the international law book under the section of civilians that are being used as shelters by the opposite side. You being Jewish is completely irrelevant. But my being here, seeing the public dispute, about us taking on our selves a moral code that is STRICHER than the international laws, that has risen because of the daily price with soldiers’ lives that we pay for that.
We won’t strike by air if there’s any suspicious of civilians that have been made to stay there in spite our warnings, even though we’re not the ones who made them shield ammunition and bunkers. Unless there’s emergency like Quana, when waiting for land troops means missiles continue to be fired from there this very instant, killing Israelis right now. That it self costs us lives of soldiers who are made to go in those traps without preceding air strikes! No army had avoided air strikes because of that. NO ARMY IN THE WORLD! NOT EVEN KARTER’S ARMY!
NO ARMY gave up any factor of surprise by repetitive warnings for civilians before an invasion to any village, regardless of the fact they have been warned before in a general warning that concludes the whole area, we state the names of the villages we are going to come in to every time! Do you have any idea as to the price in human lives of our own that we pay for that?!?! And just with soldiers’ lives, but with OUR civilians’ lives! Because they remove their missiles from the place that is to be invaded, before we come in, delaying the extermination of those missiles, and making them still available for launching at us.
There hasn’t been that kind of strict moral code in any of the western armies! Why don’t you Stephan look around and find an example to contradict me, you ass hole, eh???
Look around, don’t be lazy! Is it the Americans in Irack who live up to our standards?? Is it the Russians in Chechnya?? I want you to look for your self and make sure you have solid basis for your accusing us of war crimes! Other wise you’re just an ass with a ridiculous excuse of being a Jewish yourself to be an ass.
Take a look at what our price and the publis dispute look like from close:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3289295,00.html
Scott said: “Meanwhile, in Darfur…. Oh, wait, there’s no oil in Darfur.”
Actually there is oil in Darfur. That’s main reason for the current situation there.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sudan/story/0,14658,1503470,00.html
There is a great book “Emma’s War” that talks about the North South civil war in Sudan. It’s a fascinating story, a great read and really eye openning. Darfur is history repeating itself.
since the freaky israelis will not be able to defeat hizballah (meaning: stop them from firing ineffective rockets into israel) this whole thing is very likely to escalate even more. insane israeli generals will most likely try to bomb syria, on the grounds that syria gives hizballah rockets. this pointless war will only get worse and worse.
since the freaky israelis will not be able to defeat hizballah (meaning: stop them from firing ineffective rockets into israel) this whole thing is very likely to escalate even more. insane israeli generals will most likely try to bomb syria, on the grounds that syria gives hizballah rockets. this pointless war will only get worse and worse.
http://newsbusters.org/node/6907
here Chris, take a look at usage of UN vehicles at that link.
I’m sick of having to say had you any knowledge of your own, you would know about the suspicions Israel had of usage of UN cars the 2000 kinapings. Or you would know there was an actual capture of explosives in an ambulance with the authorization to go through the watch, that were given to a patient, that needed treatment in Israel. Only terrorists used these papers to try and smuggle an explossive baggage into Israel, to kill inocent people in some restaurant. So a TV car is really unthinkble… yeh! you definitely know your way around, done your homework…
http://newsbusters.org/node/6907
here Chris, take a look at usage of UN vehicles at that link.
I’m sick of having to say had you any knowledge of your own, you would know about the suspicions Israel had of usage of UN cars the 2000 kinapings. Or you would know there was an actual capture of explosives in an ambulance with the authorization to go through the watch, that were given to a patient, that needed treatment in Israel. Only terrorists used these papers to try and smuggle an explossive baggage into Israel, to kill inocent people in some restaurant. So a TV car is really unthinkble… yeh! you definitely know your way around, done your homework…
I don’t mind anyone calling me an idiot; that’s your right, but I sense a bit too much emotion toward other posters on this thread. I’m also weary of P.A.T.’s over-long screeds. I’m closing comments on this one. Anything else, you can email me.